Bonnie Hammer | How to Tell if Your Mentor is Holding You Back

Jonathan Fields: [00:00:09] So what if much of what you've been told about how to come alive and get ahead and work was, well, wrong? That's what today's guest, Bonnie Hammer, is arguing, and she would know as the vice chair of NBC universal, with decades at the highest levels of business and leadership. She's the author of the new book, 15 Lies How Women Are Taught to Fail and the Truth That Sets Them Free. In our conversation, Bonnie stresses the difference between just so many of the common platitudes that we hear and what actually moves the needle. And as you'll hear, much of it is contrarian, which I kind of love. Together, we dig into the importance of things like having truth tellers to give tough love rather than just champions. We need people to challenge us rather than just affirming why she believes things like faking it till you make it are terrible advice and so much more. If you feel stuck on the career ladder, well, that is candid advice from an industry icon will really open your eyes. Let's dive in. I'm John John Fields and this and this is SPARKED. Curiosity. Big opening curiosity for me is you have been in industry. Um, for, um, a long time. You have played a lot of different roles at a lot of different levels. Um, worked with a lot of different people. And so it's interesting to me that, like, this is a moment in time where something inside of you said, there are some things that I figured out that I need to put out into the world, specifically in the context of women in the workplace. Why now?

Bonnie Hammer: [00:01:58] Oh, it's actually a good question. A lot of people ask me that, you know, it's the first time in my life I actually have no agenda. So what I do, what I say is there's a purity to it because I'm. I'm not looking to get promoted. I'm not climbing a ladder anymore. I'm a vice chair, which means I'm kind of just there for council. So I'm not protecting people. I'm not protecting a bottom line. So it gives me a freedom I've never had before to kind of tell the truth and really help others navigate the workplace, whether they're early in the game or on almost any rung of the ladder with kind of pure, clean advice, because I'm just trying to tell the truth and help them not make the same mistakes I or others have made along the way. So there's a purity to it. It's almost like when you first start and you're so super naive, you also don't have an agenda. You think everything you're doing is so pure and cool. Uh, and it's there's a purity to it, even if you screw it up. So now it's the other end of it, having that same freedom, but with a lot more information and experience that you can pass along. That's that's kind of clean.

Jonathan Fields: [00:03:18] Yeah. I mean, it's such an interesting analogy that you're making, sort of like looking at when you're just starting into your career versus when you get to a point where, you know, you've kind of come full circle in a lot of different ways. And what you're describing to me, like what I'm hearing also is that, you know, when you're very, very young in your career, the stakes are generally pretty low. You may feel like they're really high when you're starting out, but you can kind of stumble and bumble and like, you know, it takes a while before anyone really cares a whole lot. You know, there's a lot on the line. You may not have a lot of expenses and a lot. And and then the stakes really start to pile up. And there is a lot on the line, you know, both personally and within an organization, a culture and enterprise. And then, you know, you're describing this moment where it feels like you've come full circle, almost back to this moment of freedom that happens in the very beginning. And I wonder if many people get to that place where they feel like they're able to return to that freedom. I'm curious what your take is on that.

Bonnie Hammer: [00:04:09] I think a lot of people do, but not everyone has a perspective. Or if they do, they kind of want to move on with their life and just kind of jump out of one chapter and leap into a whole nother book, as opposed to somehow close it. I felt it was important because I've mentored people, mostly women, but guys as well, through my whole career, to figure out a way to kind of pay it forward before I really navigated my way onto something or into something new. And I've also realized when I've looked back that if I had listened to all of the advice, all these cliches that women have brought up to believe guys too, but somehow women are a little bit more suckered into buying it because they want to succeed so desperately, and they know no other way that I felt that someone should be there to kind of help tell them the truth, rather than let them navigate through these mantras, which are really self-sabotage if they followed. So for me, it's how do I, at this stage of my life, while I still have the energy, while I'm still involved in the world, before I do really move on, pay it forward in a way that gives others the kind of uncommon sense that I didn't have when I was making my way through.

Jonathan Fields: [00:05:35] Yeah, I mean, it's I think it's always interesting when you offer something like that up to the world. Also, one of the questions for me I've been asked, and I'm sure you've been asked a version of this question so many times over the years, you know, like, what would you tell your 20 year old self? And when I think about that, like it's pretty clear some of the things I would say, but I also know my 20 year old self would not listen to any of them.

Bonnie Hammer: [00:05:56] Yeah. Well, uh, having have trying to give that information or impart that information to my own kids, you're 100% right. But if I was a wise enough 20 or even 30 year old something, the one piece of advice, which is a very hard piece of advice to give anybody, is to find tough love mentors. Um, when I grew up, I thought of mentors like my dad. Who was this? Really? You can do everything, you know. Just go after it. Super positive, super supportive, very, very loving. And it was great. And I'm sure I wouldn't have succeeded without that. But those who told me or taught me rather the most were kind of challenging mentors. They were tough love mentors. And if if there's one piece of advice I would give women and men is to kind of find a mentor. You hate. Find a foil. Find someone who's going to tell you the truth, even if it hurts, and realize they're doing it out of support and love, or at least caring not because they're trying to get you. Granted, there's a difference between people out there who are trying to mess with you and aren't your supporters, but you can kind of navigate your way through that and know who's really a tough love mentor or challenger, um, as opposed to just a jerk. Yeah. And I found the stuff I've learned, and the reason I've succeeded was because I was very lucky to have a couple starting way back when with my brother, then in college, and then, in my mind, my toughest mentor, who's now a dear friend but still a mentor, Barry Diller.

Jonathan Fields: [00:07:45] Yeah. I mean, it's interesting and you make this distinction in the book and you sort of between you call them truth tellers. It is a really interesting distinction because I think so often we're looking for those who will in some way affirm our lens on the world or our lens on what comes next, or the project or the next opportunity, because we want to feel like we've kind of figured it out and somebody is saying like, yes, that's valid. That's right. You're right. And we seek so much validation rather than just true information, because we're afraid of not being seen as having figured it out or knowing it all. And what you're saying is basically like, you know, that hurts you in the end. It may make you feel good for a moment, but at the end of the day, it stunts growth.

Bonnie Hammer: [00:08:27] Yeah, we use the word fear I think is very important. I think when you're navigating the world, you're you have so many fears that you can't even recognize one of them being the fear of change. And whether it's a new boss, a new job, somebody buys a company and all the culture changes. I find that to many people fear change rather than understand. It's the only thing that's constant. Whether it happens to you or you choose to zigzag and create the change yourself, it is going to happen. You know, whether you rock the boat or the water rocks it, you're still going to get wet. So figure out a way to embrace it rather than fear it. You know, find the door to a new place, new environment, rather than see obstacles and walls. And some of that just takes being a bit of an optimist, not a crazy fool who just sees positive, which is BS. But understand if you have the right attitude, you can embrace the change. Figure out a way in, realize that it may be uncomfortable, but get comfortable with discomfort and you'll somehow navigate a world. Yeah.

Jonathan Fields: [00:09:40] Curious is is there a moment or a story in your career path where you felt like this was a moment where the ground literally vanished from beneath your feet, or was shifting so quickly? It was like just difficult to even stabilize that that you said yes to. Maybe not immediately, but eventually said, okay, so let's see where this goes. And that led to something that you never even saw coming.

Bonnie Hammer: [00:10:02] Jonathan. It was constant. My company was sold around me, above me, beyond me, seven different times, seven different bosses, seven different cultures, seven different ways of moving. The hardest probably for me, in terms of things not going right, and I had to figure out a way to embrace it or leave was later on. It was during during a time where I had navigated my way through the cable world. I had worked on USA sci fi, I had a lot of other channels under me, and I was being set up to take up, take over the broadcast channel for NBC, and it was pretty much promised to me. And in the 11th hour, I didn't get it, and it went to a guy who was probably half my age with half the experience. And for the life of me, I couldn't figure out why I was humiliated. I was I was so upset by the whole thing. But I had to figure out, okay, what was going on. I didn't learn until years later that the reason they didn't give it to me was at the time GE thought that USA was making too much money and if I went to broadcast, they were worried that we would lose money in the cable area. Um, but I had the option to say, okay, I'm fed up, I'm leaving. I'm just so pissed at everything or figure out a way to kind of use it. And I used it to navigate my way to a raise. I was promised this. You didn't give it to me. And they almost doubled my salary because they didn't want me to leave. But they also gave me a cable studio, a studio where we could create our own content rather than buy it from outside sources, which I kind of desperately wanted, but I never even.

Bonnie Hammer: [00:11:57] Then thought to ask for something like that. Now they didn't give me a money against it to do it, but they gave me the freedom to figure out a way to make it happen, and I did. I just had people on my staff doing double jobs wearing double and triple hats, and we created a great studio. So there's so many times like that where things didn't go the way I wanted, or just the world shifted. But instead of seeing the obstacles or the walls in front of me, I kind of sat back. It's not to say that I didn't feel the emotion or get upset, or go home and cry at night, or a bitch with all of my friends. Excuse my French. But after I got through the emotion, I said, okay, now how do I navigate a way to get something better out of this? Or what do they need that I can give them in this new world? What is the new culture? How can I fit in and how do I get something different within this new world? And at each time when I shifted into the positivity of it, it always happened. And I think that's what a lot of young people in their careers. Instead of seeing those changes as major obstacles, to sit back and watch for a while and figure out what you can contribute in a new way, get to know a lot more people involved. Just wait for a while rather than be a naysayer, and you can figure out how to get what you want.

Jonathan Fields: [00:13:29] Yeah, I mean, and that makes so much sense. And it also speaks to a couple of the other things that you write about, which is this notion that so many of us, especially, I think, earlier in our careers, we sort of step into it with a particular vision of what this quote should look like, like this dream, this, this is how it's all going to unfold. And at the same time, we don't prepare ourselves. We don't expect that we'll be rocked from that, that vision pretty quickly. And when we do, rather than saying, okay, this isn't what I thought it would be, but let's see what's available to me and let's see how we can dance with it. You just start to reel from it. And what I love your your sort of saying is, what if we reset our expectations? Both we redefine what success in the short term and the long term look like. But also we redefine what adversity means to us. We tell a different story about it, you know, like, yes, it may hurt in the moment. It may may suck for like a chunk of time. But where's the possibility on the other side of that? Like what's now available to me, that wasn't and that's what I hear you sort of saying we can step into.

Bonnie Hammer: [00:14:30] Absolutely. You know, from the time we were really, really young, we're, we're told we should follow our dreams, that we should have passions, that once we have that dream, even in commencement addresses, you know, the major thing is, if you find something you love, you know you're never going to work a day in your life. It's kind of BS, you know? Yes, certain people find something that they're so passionate about, and they knew about it when they were very young that they could go after it. Most of us find it through bobbing and weaving through different experiences till we find something that is interesting enough to excite us. And I think that's one of the issues that we believe we should know what we want to do so early. And if we try it and it doesn't feel good, or we screw it up, or it really isn't in our DNA because we didn't think about, my goodness, I'm doing everything in front of a computer, but I'm a person to person person, so I should be in a work setting or I really don't like being with a lot of people. I should really be in a tech capacity. We haven't experienced enough in our life until we start zigzagging and navigating our way through, to really even understand the kinds of things that will make us happy, the kind of people we are within a work framework, um, that really helps us navigate to a place where we actually are loving what we do. We're actually happy showing up, and we really want to expand those skills and learn going sideways, rather than thinking we have to climb every rung of this ladder, which kind of goes nowhere because the world's changing so quickly, you can't depend on even that job being there in the next ten years.

Jonathan Fields: [00:16:15] Yeah. Let alone the the industry or the organization. At this point, it's flabbergasting. Yeah. The rate of change right now. And it is interesting because what you're also really highlighting is this notion that you can you can plan, you can kind of think about it, you can gather information. But the only way to really figure this out is you've got to do it your way through it. You know, you got to run the experiments. And those experiments could last from months to years, like. But as long as you're paying attention, like, what am I learning along the way? You know, and I'm so curious what your take is on this. You know, I think so many of us step into that mode, like our 20s and 30s, I think often. And the goal is like, I'm going to do this thing and I'm going to, you know, the goal is I must succeed at this thing rather than I'm going to commit to this for a reasonable enough chunk of time. And I want to see how it makes me feel, and maybe it gives me the feeling that I want it, but maybe it doesn't. And either way, if I've gathered, if I've learned from that, and I can now apply that moving forward, it's good. Like I'm good with that experience. But I feel like we are so impatient to get to that place where we've, quote, made it or it's all figured out. I don't know anybody who's further in life and further in their careers that feels like they've gotten there, no matter how outwardly successful they look like. It is just an endless sort of set of explorations, in my experience. I'm curious what your take is.

Bonnie Hammer: [00:17:31] Well, you sound very grounded about it, and that's really what it is. I started believing I was given a camera when I was literally 12 years old and, you know, at summer camp, and I basically pursued my passion for photography with, with a passion. And I was in undergraduate and communications and photojournalism school. And then I worked in photo labs, and I worked for photo studios, and I kept going after it. And every step of the way, it felt wrong. In a photo studio, I wanted to be doing photojournalism. Once I was doing photojournalism, I was so green and young, they had me chasing fire engines. That's not what I thought photojournalism was. Then I got a job doing stuff inside a studio, and it was all under fake lighting and fake everything, and I wanted the decisive moment where everything was real and natural. And it wasn't until I tripped into another offer, literally, I was taking photographs. It was a free freelance job as a graduate student, doing a practicum on a TV show where they fired three production assistants in one day. I was there taking photographs of kids for them, and they basically said, do you want a job? And I knew nothing about the TV industry, nothing about studio work.

Bonnie Hammer: [00:18:57] I had no clue what it was, but I knew my graduate program was over, photography was getting me nowhere, and I need a job. I had to pay for my life, my apartment and everything else. And I took it. And it wasn't until I took that job that I realized there's so much else out there I've never tried, I've never thought about. I've never experimented with why? Why did I waste the last 4 or 5 years pursuing something that I was actually unhappy with? But it was a passion. Now, to this day, I love photography, but I think my line in the book is, you know, yes, I still love photography, but the camera's no longer my boss. It's my play tool. And I think that's what people forget that they can love something so much that they think they have to make a living by it, where they can find other ways to keep that passion, whether it's in the artistic world or anywhere, and still zigzag their way. Try different skill sets, try different industries, try different things till they figure out what really gets them going in the morning. And how can you make a living with it?

Jonathan Fields: [00:20:10] Yeah, now, I love that. I know a lot of writers, but I also know a lot more people who love to write and would love to call themselves, you know, like authors or professional writers support themselves full time, but they've either tried and backed away or they've never tried because they just look at the field and they say, well, it's impossible to earn a family level living, like doing this thing called writing. It's basically and it is a hard thing to do. But then I'll ask them.

Bonnie Hammer: [00:20:34] Yeah, I will tell you, having now written this book, writing is a sobering experience. It is. I have more respect for anybody who writes no less is a published writer. After this, spending three years trying to do this.

Jonathan Fields: [00:20:51] Book, it is very sobering. I'm every time I commit to a new book, I'm like, oh, so I'm doing this again, huh? Um, but but what's interesting also is like when I, when I would talk to these friends who are not doing this, I would say, well, well, if this is a passion, if you love it, like, are you writing on the side or are you like journaling? Are you just writing just purely for the joy of it on a Saturday morning for 20 minutes? Um, and so often the answer is no. And this is what you're saying. It's like you don't necessarily if this is genuinely a part of you, like, just do it for the joy of it in the. Margins in life and whatever time that you have, like it puts so much pressure on this thing to say like, this has to be the thing that supports me. I think that it often takes so much joy out of it, because you do it in a way where it's now almost entirely in service of a market and and an income. But maybe what brought you to that initially is so stripped from it that the essence is no longer there in the way that actually really makes you come alive. And you're sort of saying like, don't butcher it like that. Like, you know, like do it in a way that actually continues to bring you joy. And if that's, you can figure out a way to earn a living doing it, awesome. But even if not, like, do it in the margins, do it on the side just because of the feeling it gives you.

Bonnie Hammer: [00:22:02] You're 100% accurate that once you put so much pressure and you invest so much psychologically into having to do it, it strips the joy, it strips the creativity, and it takes something that is so organic to your happiness and steals it. So if you can figure out a way to kind of put it aside while you take a look at other skills, doesn't mean that you can't stay in something creative. It doesn't mean that you. For me, I was still in a visual business. I was still using the skills that I learned and loved with photography, but in a completely different place with a whole lot of other people around me. That was far more fun. And yet, for me, the most peaceful, peaceful thing to do is go for a walk, whether it's just with my iPhone or my camera, and just shoot the way I want, but nothing is attached to it. So it really is freeing. It's relaxing. It's almost like meditating as opposed to putting all of my energy. And then if I fail at it, judging myself because of it.

Jonathan Fields: [00:23:13] Yeah, that makes so much sense. You know, what you're describing also is if you take something like photography and you ask yourself, well, what is it? You know, like underneath, like what is the underlying impulse there? You know, is it do I have a do I love being able to actually see and capture the world in a particular way? Do I love being able to actually tell stories through the images that I'm capturing? It sounds like those are probably a big part of you, and you transferred those underlying, those deeper impulses into letting them be centered in your work life, but in a different way, where you could still get like a pretty similar Jones from them. But, you know, in a way that actually allowed you to say, now I can actually I understand what a career would look like, like doing it this way.

Bonnie Hammer: [00:23:55] There are two things for me that are very important in photography that I still live out. One is figuring out how to tell a story in a single image. Now, granted, now I have many more places to tell that story and the other was for me, Cartier-bresson's decisive moment, which was literally doing something candid that you see at the moment and capturing it because it's there, there's nothing artificial, there's nothing fixed. You don't create it, there's no artificial lighting. That to me was really important. And when I really realized why the passion wasn't taking me into a career, there's no way you can do the decisive moment in a job because it's all artificial. It's artificial light, it's artificial. Everything in the work setting, even, you know, sensationalizing a moment if you do it for news, it's kind of capturing the goriest or the funniest or whatever it is, it's it's fixed. It's formulized as opposed to organic. And there. So it took me a while to realize I was not going to get that. What I loved most about photography in the job world, but there were other places I can still create that story. Yeah, and that's why the industry worked for me.

Jonathan Fields: [00:25:13] You know, it's interesting also, the way you described the sort of like the shift into something new where, you know, like you end up doing this thing, you have no idea, like this new opportunity comes your way and you just kind of roll with it. One of the things that I think stops a lot of people from saying yes once a new door opens that they never saw coming, and they're not really sure what's on the other side. And you write about this, is this sort of the whole fake it till you make it thing, you know, like everyone's like, oh, just say yes and go fake it till you make it and and like it'll figure itself out. You have a different take.

Bonnie Hammer: [00:25:44] Fake it till you make it is the most destructive piece of advice, cliché, mantra that I think guys as well as women are exposed to it. But women more often, that is literally what is said to them. If they're entering a new area, they don't know what it's about. They don't know how to do. It is just fake it. Somehow you'll get there. It is the most bullshit piece of advice I can and dangerous piece of advice that women get the minute you start faking something, the minute anybody catches you in a lie or a falsehood, everything that falls. Will be questioned. My advice to women is always face it till you make it, and you will be shocked to see what kind of help, support and appreciation you get. My earliest story was that literally in my first job that I mentioned earlier, we were shooting a kid show and the director, we were behind in schedule and he sends me to LA. I've never been to LA at that point. I don't think I've ever been a work flight on my own in my entire life, from Boston to Los Angeles, and I had to show up at an editing site. Never edited in my life, didn't even really probably know what it meant to edit, but I knew the contents of what the show had to be, and I logged in.

Bonnie Hammer: [00:27:09] Those days was two inch videotape. I plugged in the tape to this studio, and the very young 30 something year old engineer basically sits down and he looks at me and he says, so. And I look back, and I had a choice at that moment, either to B.S. or to tell the truth. And I just said, I've never ended. I've never edited a piece of videotape in my life. I do not know what I'm doing. I know the material. I know where everything is. I have really good taste. So teach me. And literally he said, okay, we're going to make you a star. And what happened was the next week editing. I think we had to do three shows at the time. He taught me everything I needed to know about editing. He took me under his wing. We had such a good time, and I had a learning journey. Other than a journey of lying and pretending I knew what was coming on and telling him I like to cut or I didn't like something that was all made up. So I ended up having a friend for life.

Bonnie Hammer: [00:28:15] I was taught it was like a graduate course in video editing, and I went back with finished shows and they appreciated my work and I kept moving on. So to me, it's in the sense when you tell the truth and ask somebody for the for their help, it empowers them to help you. It makes them feel good. They want to take you under their wing and then kind of show off what they did. And as long as you're appreciative and return and are honest and thank them, those relationships last forever. And somehow you find out later down the road. It pays off in so many different ways. I've had that so many times in my career. I did it with Vince McMahon and the WWE when I first had to go in and basically say, I'm going to help you with your storylines. That was crazy. And but I had to admit, I'd never watched a show in my life until two weeks before it was assigned to me when working at USA network. So every time I've told the truth, instead of faking it, faced it till I made it. It always empowered others to help me and it always got me to my next step in the career.

Jonathan Fields: [00:29:31] Hmm. No, I think that's so powerful. Also, you know, because that also speaks to and again, you wrote about this, the the notion of imposter syndrome. Like, if you could do the fake it till you make a thing, even if you don't. So often people report feeling imposter syndrome. But this basically it positions it as not knowing does not mean you're an imposter. It just means like you are at this moment in your life. And it's like if you actually own that, then you don't have to hide anything. There's nothing. There's no imposter anymore. When you're actually open about the state of your knowledge and your skills. Yes. And just like this is me, here's who I am. Like, I have a lot to offer, and I'm really willing to invest in learning. Would you help me that? That is, I think, so endearing to so many people. And yet we're often so terrified of being judged, the newbie or the person who doesn't know, not realizing that like you described, most times people will look at you and say, I actually have a lot of respect for that, and sure like to the extent they have the, you know, the time and the energy and the availability to help you, I'm happy to do that because it's it's a good feeling to do that on the other side as well. Yet we rarely ever ask those questions.

Bonnie Hammer: [00:30:35] It all goes back to trust. I think, first and foremost, most people don't understand that everybody at some point in their life feels like they're imposter. It just is, and most people won't admit it. Again, I like people to talk about it because once they realize they're not alone, it basically makes them feel far more comfortable in their own skin, rather than thinking they're the only ones that are depleted of something, but being able to admit it to yourself, admit it to others. The minute people feel empowered to help you nine out of ten times, they will. They'll also trust you because you're willing to tell them or admit what you don't know. So when you actually say later on, oh yeah, I got this, they're going to say, go, great, you're on, take it. Because they're going to know that you told them the truth. Therefore, the next time when you say you can do it, they're going to absolutely embrace it and let you go.

Jonathan Fields: [00:31:32] Yeah, that's such a great point. And it also it lets it lets you show up as a sort of a consistent brand, you know, like people know that. What like if you say something that is the truth, that is the reality, they can count on it. It's that trust that you're talking about. There's so many other great myths and sort of corrections or your take on these things throughout the book, zooming the lens out on this conversation, you know, and I encourage everybody to dive in and really explore all the different ones. When you offer a book like this. And as you described, it took three years to actually create this and send it out into the world. Do you send it out into the world with any particular intention?

Bonnie Hammer: [00:32:09] You know, when I thought about writing 15 lies, to me, it was trying to figure out a way to continue to mentor, in particular, other women. And while I'm at work, easy to do. People come to me or I'll reach out to them. But I wanted to figure out a way to create kind of a mentorship in your pocket, a book, or a way that I could help women navigate when I'm not going to be able to see them on a one on one basis. So for me, it was, how do I give advice? Kind of uncommon sense in a very common sense way that's easily digestible, quick to read Hart's humor. I'm self-deprecating as hell in the book because it's the truth of how I see myself when I screw something up and let them learn from it. So it's a way to give advice and easy soundbites so they can nail that kind of information and advice to help them succeed. That was my goal.

Jonathan Fields: [00:33:15] Fantastic. Well, thank you so much for the conversation. To all our listeners. Thank you so much for tuning in and we will see you all here again on SPARKED next time. Take care. Hey, so I hope you enjoyed that conversation. Learned a little something about your own quest to come alive and work in life, and maybe feel a little bit less alone along this journey to find and do what sparks you. And remember, if you're at a moment of exploration, looking to find and do or even create work that makes you come more fully alive, that brings more meaning and purpose and joy into your life, take the time to discover your own personal Sparketype for free at sparketype.com. It'll open your eyes to a deeper understanding of yourself and open the door to possibility like never before. And hey, if you're finding value in these conversations, please just take an extra second right now to follow and rate SPARKED in your favorite podcast app. This is so helpful in helping others find the show and growing our community so that we can all come alive and work in life together. This episode of SPARKED was produced by executive producers Lindsey Fox and Me, Jonathan Fields. Production and editing by Sarah Harney. Special thanks to Shelley Adelle for her research on this episode. Until next time. I'm Jonathan Fields and this is SPARKED.