Dr. Jessica Kriegel | Unfair Work Labels Got You Down? Here's How To Overcome Them

LinkedIn: [00:00:00] Linkedin presents.

Jonathan Fields: [00:00:09] So have you ever felt diminished or dismissed, pigeonholed into some generational stereotype that fails to capture who you are and your potential as a human being? Maybe you're a young striver constantly battling this entitled Gen Z or millennial narrative. Or on the other side, a seasoned veteran having to prove your relevance in a youth obsessed culture. If this experiences resonate, you are not alone. Question is what can you do about it? That's what we're diving into today with my guest, Doctor Jessica Kriegel, chief scientist of workplace culture at Culture Partners and author of Unfairly Labeled Doctor. Kriegel is really driven by data and defined by results. This conversation will open your eyes to the subtle yet powerful ways that generational myths hold teams and organizations and individuals back from their highest potential, and what we can do to rewrite these scripts to create a new, more real to life culture that elevates and respects all. Let's dive in. I'm Jonathan Fields and this is SPARKED. And one last thing before we dive into today's conversation, we are incredibly excited to be sharing a new feature on the SPARKED podcast, Career Transformation Stories. We'll be inviting guests to share inspiring stories of their career transformations, from leaving behind unfulfilling jobs to pursue new, more inspired, energized, purposeful, and passionate paths. We're looking for people who've made the decision to spark change in their work lives. Now, this could range from stories of people who reimagined the way they do the same job, so it feels better to those starting entirely different roles companies, industries, or even launching their own endeavors.

Jonathan Fields: [00:02:01] We're particularly interested in featuring guests who have taken or are open to taking the Sparketype assessment. This unique tool helps you discover your unique imprint for work that makes you come alive, and we'd love to explore how your Sparketype has played a role in your career transformation. So by sharing your story on SPARKED, you'll have the opportunity to inspire others who may be feeling stuck or unsure about their own career paths. And you'll also be talking to me about your journey and your sparketype. So maybe we can tease out a few more insights and awakenings. So if you're ready to ignite, change and share your story with our community, we encourage you to apply to be a guest on SPARKED. We believe that everyone deserves to find fulfillment and purpose in their work, and we're on a mission to help you get there. To apply, go ahead and check out the form in the show notes now. I'm fascinated by the work that you've been doing in the context of culture, especially in a world where it feels like the the work experience is changing faster than ever before. I'm also kind of curious about your own background. I know your early degree was theater, and then you went on to gain an MBA and then an Ed.D. and now, from what I understand, exploring or pursuing an MDiv in theology, what's the common thread there? Like what's the through line with all of those?

Dr. Jessica Kriegel: [00:03:30] I think the only through line is learning, and it was at each phase of my development the thing that I was the most interested in. So when I was in college, I was most interested in theater because I was in a musical theater high school, and I wanted to keep doing that and performing. And then I thought I should really make some money instead of just flit about on stage. And so I got an MBA, and then I thought, hmm, I really like working in HR, so I should really get a doctoral degree in human resources development. And then I had a spiritual experience. I was a lifelong atheist that had a spiritual experience. And I said, you know what? I think I'll go back to school and learn about God and figure this whole thing out now. So I just love learning. I'm constantly curious. Yeah.

Jonathan Fields: [00:04:12] That's amazing. I wonder if even your early work and training in theater still advises what you do today, because it seems like you could probably draw on a lot of what you learned from, like all the way back then.

Dr. Jessica Kriegel: [00:04:24] Oh, absolutely. I mean, I'm a keynote speaker, so a lot of my time is spent on stage in front of thousands of people, projecting my voice, reading the room. I mean, all of those lessons are relevant, and I think it was the best major I could have picked for myself at the time, because I think the way we communicate is one of the most powerful tools that we have, not just what we're saying. Right?

Jonathan Fields: [00:04:46] Yeah. So agree with you. I think, you know, the actual spoken content is one thing, but the way that we transmit, you know, all the other nuances and things like that through, you know, like tone, cadence, body language, movement, it says often so much more than what's coming out of our, our mouths. And oftentimes I wonder if you see this in leaders also when you're saying one thing, but everything else about the way that you're showing up is saying a different thing. It lands as this weird cognitive dissonance in those that you're trying to convey a message to, and people don't understand why they're feeling weird about this, but they just know, like, something's not right here.

Dr. Jessica Kriegel: [00:05:20] Yeah, absolutely. I mean, workplace culture, the way that we define it is it's how people think and act to get results. And the expression of how we think and act happens in very small ways, in experiences that we have all day long with each other, either in person or in an email or a text, or the way that we communicate on slack or not. And those experiences lead people to hold beliefs about you, about what you value and what you don't, what you think is important, whether you're not, whether or not you're really in this with me. And and those beliefs that people form about you through the experiences you create are what is going to drive their action and ultimately get you a result. So really, those experiences you're creating as a leader, that is what gets you results or not. In business, it's absolutely critical to culture and financial impact. That's the key here. It's not just about how people feel, it's about the result that the company is getting.

Jonathan Fields: [00:06:17] Yeah, it is interesting, right? Because at the end of the day, if you're working with organizations, especially senior leadership, the question always comes down to like, how does this affect the bottom line? I think we're starting to broaden out from that. I think people are starting to realize, you know, there's a triple net responsibility here, or we need to actually really think about how is this affecting people, community. But at the end of the day, you know, like the bottom line is always a part of the equation. As much as sometimes we wish that it wasn't, you know, like the most important thing in that equation.

Dr. Jessica Kriegel: [00:06:44] Yeah, I think the, the triple bottom line and the idea that culture is a good thing for, you know, retention. And on the in the long term, if people leave then the company has to adjust. I mean that's that's coming along maybe. But I have been actually able to show CEOs the ROI of culture when they understand what culture is. Problem is, a lot of CEOs consider culture to be things like kombucha. You know, we have Hawaiian Shirt Fridays and ping pong tables. Yeah, ping pong tables. Oh my goodness. I think we've graduated from ping pong tables to foos tables, but still not. Culture is the key. Right. So one interesting exercise I do with CEOs when I'm talking to them behind closed doors is I ask them how many people they have on their team. So let's say they have 10,000 employees. And I said, if I could make you a deal where I'm going to make you fire 40% of your employees, you're going to get rid of 4000 of those people, and you're going to be left with 6000. But those 6000 people that you have left, they are going to give it their all. They are going to deeply care about the work that you're doing, and they're going to be 100% all in. Would you make that deal? And most of them say yes, because having a workforce that is all in is the goal. I mean, that is gold right there because people make your strategy come to life and they are the people who are problem solving every day and driving results. And every CEO knows that they have a handful or maybe more people who are just kind of checked out. So that's culture. That is the way that people think and act at work. And once they get that connection, they really do invest in culture because they realize it is directly affecting the bottom line.

Jonathan Fields: [00:08:25] Yeah. I mean, it's so interesting that you say that, especially because when you look at what's happened in the tech industry in the last 3 or 4 years, you're seeing the equivalent of that level of cut, but you're not seeing what you're not seeing is, um, the other part of what you're talking about, sort of like a genuine adaptation of culture and like, actually, who are we? Who are we reducing like and and why are we doing it? And are we actually left with the 6000 out of 10,000 who are really on board with the mission and the values and lit up, and who we can really create something astonishing with. Or are we just kind of like, you know, telling leaders makes them across the board cuts because we can kind of do it now and we know it's going to be okay for the bottom line. I feel like we're seeing those cuts now and we're seeing efficiencies happen, but we're not seeing the other part of the equation that you're talking about here. So like the the expansion of of the human experience and also, um, the people you know who are there being there because they really want to be there.

Dr. Jessica Kriegel: [00:09:24] Yeah. Well, because they don't have to write. And let's also remember where we are in the evolution of tech generally. The industry as a whole, when it started was in build mode. They were developing and trying to capture market share. And they are all all the big tech companies have done that. They've developed what they're developing now. It's small, iterative changes. There's no big bang thing that they're trying to develop anymore. So they don't need as many people for iterative changes. Right. They've already the market share is distributed as it is. So they're changing their business model in that they don't need as many people as they did when they were in development mode. And so this is this is not we have to really rethink the way we think about layoffs. And I actually have a newsletter coming out shortly about this, which is that it shouldn't surprise people when they see layoffs anymore. Somehow it still is news in the media, because in our mental models about layoffs, we consider them something that are a last resort when a company is in dire straits and poor financial performance, and we have to turn the ship around, that's not what's happening. Layoffs are happening because we can. So as an employee, the best thing that you can do is skill up network like crazy and be prepared because it's probably going to happen to you.

Jonathan Fields: [00:10:40] Yeah. I mean, I think it's, um, sobering yet real. Yes. Real real thoughts. Yeah, yeah. And that's kind of what we want right now. I think, you know, there's we love to live in a certain sense of delusion, but at the end of the day, it serves nobody, including us, no matter what level we are within an organization. The new work that you have out the new book on unfairly labeled it's I'm curious, where does this evolve from your work and culture?

Dr. Jessica Kriegel: [00:11:05] It actually was the beginning of it. So when I did the doctoral degree in human resources development, this was my dissertation research was on different generations in the workplace. And what's interesting is I came in with a thesis that every generation is different, and we have to learn what these unique differences are and in order to attract and retain and engage the Gen Z and millennial and baby boomer populations uniquely, we have to understand those differences. And the research completely debunked my hypothesis. The literature review that I did showed so many contradictions in the research that had come before me. One researcher will say one thing, another researcher will say the exact opposite. It's based on lazy leadership or anecdotal evidence. Right. And my actual research, which was quantitative research done in a corporate setting, showed that there were very few differences across the generations. So that led me to, you know, I wasn't even keynoting necessarily. I wasn't keynoting at all. And someone invited me to keynote. It was my very first keynote at a large conference, and I just shared my research, and the audience was filled with all the right clients, people from Lockheed Martin and Toyota and the Federal Reserve. They all raise their hand and said, can you come and talk to us about that? And that's where my keynote career kicked off from, was really just sharing research I thought people needed to hear.

Jonathan Fields: [00:12:22] Yeah, and I love that. It's research that sort of points at other research and says, can we not just accept this as true and really explore what the reality is here? You use the phrase generation. And I think that's also a phrase that a lot of people, you know, immediately we just assume, oh, we're talking about like the Zs, the millennials, the Xers, the boomers. Is that how we're using the phrase when you talk about generations? Is that what we're talking about?

Dr. Jessica Kriegel: [00:12:46] Yes. But ideally, I mean, the big point of the book is never talk about generations again, right? It is not useful. It is totally biased. It is ageism hiding in a socially acceptable generational label. So let's think differently. Think better because this is just lazy, bucketing and bias.

Jonathan Fields: [00:13:04] So before we get into how do we think differently and how do we think better? Are there use cases where speaking in terms of generations is still valid and useful?

Dr. Jessica Kriegel: [00:13:16] Well it's interesting. So marketing is where I get the most pushback. People in marketing say, well, we've been using demographics to bucket people into the general ideas, but if you're just using generation, it's, uh, again, you're going to run into an issue in the marketing world. Because when you think about a millennial and I think about a millennial and your listener thinks about a millennial, what you're probably imagining is a middle income, white American person. And so you've already attached a bunch of your bias about what a millennial is to that demographic. So, you know, now with marketing, we have the ability to cater to people who are millennials and also in this income bracket, and also liked Birkenstock on social media and also visited this, you know, lab diamond website recently. So that's much more useful and powerful than just saying, here's what Gen Z wants because it's too broad and it's nonspecific. So I haven't found the place where this is useful. There are trends that we can notice over time in how society is evolving, but again, very hard to distinguish between generations and life stage, because a lot of the research shows that the things that Gen Zers are doing now are similar to what baby boomers were doing when they were in their 20s. And, you know, I could share data with you on that all day long. So we don't even know what is generation and what is just. I'm in my 20s.

Jonathan Fields: [00:14:36] Yeah. It's so funny that you say that because, you know, there was the glass. You don't see it as much online these days, but the classic, you know, like okay, Boomer, which was, you know, people would say like, this is Gen Z rolling their eyes at the baby boomers. And in fact, as you just described, when you really think about it, there are so many similarities to the way that that like those two like age groups at a similar age in their like early 20s, late teens, early 20s. The values are really fascinatingly overlapping, and their sense of activism and civic involvement and like centering meaning and purpose and presence, it's there is so much fascinating overlap there, even though they, you know, like they feel like they're they're so just wildly different on the surface.

Dr. Jessica Kriegel: [00:15:20] Yeah. I mean, I'll share some actual data with you, the employee Benefits Research Institute measures tenure at jobs based on age. And so we're talking about loyalty to our employers. That's one of the biggest myths, right, that young people are not as loyal as older people. Well, people 25 to 35, according to this research study, they stay on average three years with their firm, their company, their organization, whatever it is, people 55 to 65 years old on average, they stay ten years. So you look at that and you're like, look, young people, three years old, people ten years, they're clearly less loyal in the lower generations. But that Employee Benefits Research Institute has been doing that exact study for 60 years. And 60 years ago, the numbers were exactly the same. So the baby boomers were just as disloyal to their employers back then, which completely flies in the face of everything we know about the evolution of work and how we used to stay with one company for 40 years. But, you know, John Deere is one of my clients. I went there recently and got a tour of their manufacturing floor, and the person giving me a tour was an 80 year old man who got his job at John Deere in 1966. And I said, was this your first job? And he said, oh, no, I worked for a competitor for a year beforehand, but their culture was horrible. So I left. And then he found John Deere, which has a great culture, and he stayed for 50 years. Right.

Jonathan Fields: [00:16:36] Yeah. I mean it's so interesting. The full circle effect there. You also mentioned that there's a relationship between using generational framing and ageism. Yeah. Take me deeper into that.

Dr. Jessica Kriegel: [00:16:48] Well let's use a different. So one of the tricks I do in my keynote is I ask the audience to shout out words that you associate with Gen Z or millennials, and then they'll say things like entitled or lazy or, you know, whatever. And then I said, now imagine if I were to replace the label generation Z or millennial with a different label. And I said, okay, there's four races in the workplace. There's the whites, the blacks, the Hispanics and the Asian. What do you know about the Asians? And then they said, they're entitled. They're loyal. Whatever those phrases are, it's it's a it's a wake up call to where they realize that, you know, we're not allowed to classify people based on race, but yet we're doing it based on age and what makes one better than the other? Nothing. It's just another bucket that we're throwing people into. And you know what makes up our personality is not the broad, 20 year wide age bracket that we happen to have been born within. It is the series of experiences that we've had hundreds and thousands and millions of experiences in our childhood and adulthood that led to us forming certain mindsets and beliefs about the world and leads to our actions, and that's what gets us a result. So that is actually the definition of culture, and it is the definition of people, right? People make up our culture and that is how we intentionally craft culture in the workplace, is we understand how people work and you act accordingly. It's actually not rocket science, and it has nothing to do with ping pong tables anymore. Yeah.

Jonathan Fields: [00:18:14] So which brings us to okay, so what does it have to do with. And this is one of the things you talk about, you know, and I think corporate speak loves to use the phrase engagement. And I think it kind of, you know, even though you can literally, you know, there are essays that you can use to try and standardize a definition of it. I think most people really they kind of look at it differently in different contexts. And, you know, under this umbrella, you know, you really say, let's let can we talk about meaning, growth and purpose here because this is such an important part of the experience these days.

Dr. Jessica Kriegel: [00:18:42] Yeah. I mean, I think employee engagement is dead. And if it isn't dead, it should be dead, because let's go back. Right. In the 90s, we didn't in the 80s, we didn't have engagement, we had job satisfaction. And we used to pull our employees and ask them, do you like your job? Simple as that. And it was a yes or no. Or we got a one through five scale and then we'd figure it out in the 90s. A bunch of management consultants got together and decided that engagement would be better than job satisfaction, because engagement is the extent to which you're focused on the task at hand. So engagement is about productivity and driving action, right. So CEOs jumped on to that. They're very excited because I don't want people to just be happy. I want them to be working happy. And so how do I drive engagement? But what that leads to is exactly what you saw when we reached the tipping point with Covid is burnout, and really where people stuck in the action trap, where managers are micromanaging activity and employees are getting nagged by managers about what they're doing all day long, and it feels oppressive. And engagement doesn't sustain over time. So we're flipping the script and suggesting instead that people focus on employee fulfillment, which is what is the extent to which you are able to fulfill your personal purpose and goals for yourself here at this company. And so when I interview people, the first question I ask everyone is, what is your personal why? What's your personal purpose? And then they say what it is. And then I say, okay, well, here's the organization's purpose. It's at Culture Partners, for example. It's to unleash the power of culture, to inspire people and organizations to reach their full potential. Do you feel like you can accomplish your personal purpose by helping us accomplish our organizational purpose? Is there alignment there? And now you're talking about purpose fit as opposed to culture fit, which is really just bias, right? It's like who's just like us? We want to hire people just like us. That's super dangerous.

Jonathan Fields: [00:20:35] No, that makes so much sense to me. I mean, we've got sort of like, our own internal insights on this. We have a database now of about 50 million data points gathered from close to a million people at this point, and a correlational study after that that showed that, you know, and we're asking people to essentially identify a certain set of impulses for work that makes them come alive. And we define that as a sweet spot between meaningfulness, purpose, accessibility to flow, energy and excitement, and express potential. And what we know in our data is that the more people say that they're able to do this kind of work in their day to day experience, the more they actually, you know, the more they experience that sense of meaningfulness and purpose. It completely changes the way that that they experience work in general, like the way that they feel about it, the way that they show up. And we've also seen at the high end of that scale, the retention data is is stunning. You know, it goes up to like ten plus years in a place when they consistently feel that. So it all lands as, as really true. Like one of the things that, you know, so you sort of centered meaning and purpose in in for these purposes. But growth I think is another this is one of the things that you write and talk about as something that it feels like more and more people are showing up and saying, I also want to know that this organization is going to invest in me as an individual and my growth. Um, and what's fascinating to me, I'm so curious what your take is on this. I'm seeing this people saying, I'm not just talking about my professional growth or my career development, but my growth as a human being. I'm wondering if you're seeing that show up in the work that you're doing, too.

Dr. Jessica Kriegel: [00:22:11] Yeah. And it's interesting because, you know, in the past we used to grow and develop and learn together as a community. I mean, in the town square or at church. And growth came to us naturally in the way that we lived. And that has been stunted because of the disconnected, fragmented digital nature of the way that we live now. Today, the only time you really grow is if you proactively sign up for school a million times like I have. Right? And you have that natural inclination to do that, or if it comes to you through work. So I believe the future of work is increased responsibility from workplaces to provide learning opportunities that go way beyond professional responsibilities. And you're beginning to see that. But again, it's such a litigious culture that there is such a fear of liability from heads of HR and legal that people are. You have to be a bit bold to dip your toe into those waters, and I think it will expand this. Bring your whole self to work, mental health at work, spirituality at work. All those things are still a bit taboo. Love at work. You're starting to see that a little bit, but it's going to take time, I think, before we really embrace it. Yeah, either time or a revolution. One of the two or both.

Jonathan Fields: [00:23:26] Right. Yeah.

Dr. Jessica Kriegel: [00:23:27] Or both. Yeah.

Jonathan Fields: [00:23:28] Maybe that kind of work together in a positive, constructive way. Um, that last one. Also, love is fascinating because it also brings up something else that you speak and write about, which is, um, the notion of belonging, you know, and how that affects us both individually, but also how it affects us in a collaborative, in a team dynamic type of environment.

Dr. Jessica Kriegel: [00:23:46] Yeah. I actually did qualitative research on this just last year where I was interviewing fortune 500 Chros about love at work. The the language of love. The act of love. Where does it show up? Where doesn't it? How do we feel about it? And interestingly, the one of the greatest insights from this research was love at work shows up most often in two scenarios one when things are rocking, when we've just knocked our goals out of the park and we're celebrating and we are just on top of the world, it's like, I love you, man. We've accomplished something wonderful. We can talk about love in those contexts. And then the second is in deep, deep crisis when, for example, the Ukrainian war broke out or there's Covid or something critical happens that is very difficult to navigate. Love comes out in those cases. We've got to come together and solve for this problem where it doesn't feel comfortable to come out as everything in between, which isn't that a shame, because that's 99% of our lives in between. And it's, you know, this is professional, not personal. We certainly couldn't talk about that or express that here. And so it creates a bizarre dynamic where we're kind of going back and forth between professional and personal in our whole selves and just a bit of ourselves. And so that is very tricky.

Jonathan Fields: [00:25:03] Yeah, it's so interesting. Right. Because you also see increasingly I've seen, you know, quote, thought leaders, management thought leaders share some version of if you are considering an opportunity and anyone at any point along the way says, yeah, we're a family. It's just like family here. Turn and run really fast.

Dr. Jessica Kriegel: [00:25:22] I'm one of those people that says that. Right?

Jonathan Fields: [00:25:25] So so I find this really interesting though, right? Because on the one hand, if you and I understand the they're very real arguments there because it can also be a setup for exploitation and overwork and a complete obliteration of boundaries and all of these things that say, we're a family, you got to show up and support the family. We all work together this way. On the one hand, I completely get the danger of that. On the other hand, I also see that what we're assuming there is that we are taking the most common and the worst dysfunctions of family, and that's how we're defining family when we hear this, you know, rather than saying, okay, so what about really hyper functional, well balanced, well adjusted, well Boundaried family, you know, which we all aspire to have, you know, so the struggle I have with that is that we're effectively saying you take the worst, most dysfunctional behaviors of a family and assume that that is what they mean, and then run like hell, rather than saying, what about the best aspects of a family that really actually, you know, jives and loves each other and has boundaries and has dignity and respect for each other, and they are utterly there for each other when they really need to be.

Dr. Jessica Kriegel: [00:26:33] Yeah, well I would let's take the completely functional family as an example to do at work. But then you can't have layoffs because there's no kicking someone out of the family. And that's just not the reality of business these days. So that's why the family thing is dangerous. Not because family can be dysfunctional, but because we are performance driven culture. And the goal of the CEO is to drive value to the shareholder. And so then to say we are a family is completely disingenuous, because the reality is, if some economic outside competitor, something happens and we have to adjust, we got to kick Susie out of the family, right? That doesn't that doesn't feel right. If we've been saying we're a family, there's also different kinds of love. Right. And that I think there's familial love, there's romantic love, there's agape love, and agape love is the kind of love we want to see in the workplace, which is I'm going to put your needs above my needs, and we're going to see what happens, which is completely counter-intuitive to the way that business works. But it doesn't have to be all the time. And I can give you an example. I was working with this fintech company, and they had a marketing team and a sales team that were always at odds with each other, right? Marketing and sales generally have trouble getting along, and this company was no different. And so the head of marketing said, I just can't get this head of sales to follow through on the things that I ask him to.

Dr. Jessica Kriegel: [00:27:55] I need this kind of information, and I need him to use this kind of language, and they're just not adopting our tools. And then we're getting blamed for not generating leads. What do I do? And I said to the head of marketing, ask the head of sales to a meeting and spend the entire meeting talking about how can I support you better don't ask for anything. Don't talk about what he hasn't done. Just say I want to be better partner to you. How can I give you more and spend the whole hour focused on that, and then follow through on all the things that he said? Just be quiet about the things that you want, right? And follow through and see what happens. And sure enough, you know they have this meeting. It was productive. She followed through, and then the head of sales a month later was like, hey, let's have a conversation about how I can help you. And then she was able to bring forth the things that she wanted from him all along, and they had a much more trusting relationship. So when we think of what can I give rather, what can I take? That's another thing that a lot of management thought leaders share about it actually does drive results, even though it doesn't make sense on its surface.

Jonathan Fields: [00:28:56] Yeah, it is one of the counterintuitive things. And yet it actually works because that's fun. It speaks to the fundamental nature of like, human beings. Um, yeah, in so many ways. It's like, who knew? If you treat people like human beings, it actually helps everybody and you and makes you feel better about the way that you're actually showing up. At the same time, rather than take, take, take. At least I would hope it makes you feel better. Um, yeah. Right. So as as we start to think wrapping up this conversation, you know, I think it's clear that, you know, your message is fundamentally like in this context, let's get rid of the generational labels and just look at the human beings and look at like, what do people actually want and need right now in the context of this moment in commerce, in just like their human day to day experience? And can we actually speak to and support that? And as you float and you shared, you know, we're starting to look at things like meaning and purpose and growth and belonging and that agape love. What would you invite somebody to sort of start to somebody listening to this and like, yeah, this makes sense. But I really don't know. Like what's the first step into like exploring these ideas? Um, beyond saying like, okay, so I'm going to go by the book so I can really dive into this. Yeah. No. What's sort of like, what are the first steps in here?

Dr. Jessica Kriegel: [00:30:09] Yeah. If you're a leader of a team CEO or even just a team leader with three people on your team lower in an organization, the first thing you need to do is get crystal clear on the metric. The result that you're trying to achieve it should be meaningful, measurable, and memorable. So it has to be something that you could say yes or no. I achieved this at the end of the quarter or the year or three years. Whatever your time frame is, that's most appropriate. And then here's the key. You ask yourself, what are the shared beliefs that are currently getting in the way of us accomplishing that goal? And what do I need those beliefs to be rather than focusing on? What do I need to do? What strategy is going to make sense? It's what do I need people to believe in order to accomplish this so that they will proactively problem solve and and act towards it themselves? And then once you figure out what those beliefs are and what they need to be, be conscious about the experiences that you are creating to intentionally shape the right beliefs or the wrong beliefs. And that's step one. What am I trying to accomplish? What beliefs are getting in the way? What do I want those beliefs to be? And what experiences can I create to drive those correct beliefs?

Jonathan Fields: [00:31:19] Love that and I love the shift of focus on beliefs also, which is something that pretty much everyone just skips over. Totally.

Dr. Jessica Kriegel: [00:31:26] But I'm in divinity school, so I'm thinking about.

Jonathan Fields: [00:31:28] There you go all the time. Exactly right. It's like everything starts there. Fantastic. Well, thank you so much for sharing your insights. Excited to have everyone go deeper into this work and really understand, like how do we how do we move past the labels and start looking at the human beings to support not just the organization, but those beings in their own flourishing so that we can flourish more collectively?

Dr. Jessica Kriegel: [00:31:48] Thank you for having me.

Jonathan Fields: [00:31:52] Hey, so I hope you enjoyed that conversation. Learned a little something about your own quest to come alive and work in life, and maybe feel a little bit less alone along this journey to find and do what sparks you. And remember, if you're at a moment of exploration, looking to find and do or even create work that makes you come more fully alive, that brings more meaning and purpose and joy into your life, take the time to discover your own personal Sparketype for free at sparketype.com. It will open your eyes to a deeper understanding of yourself and open the door to possibility like never before. And hey, if you're finding value in these conversations, please just take an extra second right now to follow and rate SPARKED in your favorite podcast app. This is so helpful in helping others find the show and growing our community so that we can all come alive and work in life together. This episode of SPARKED was produced by executive producers Lindsey Fox and Me, Jonathan Fields. Production and editing by Sarah Harney. Special thanks to Shelley Adelle for her research on this episode. Until next time. I'm Jonathan Fields and this is SPARKED.