Finding Your Path Through Burnout & Rediscovering your Vitality

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Advice Seeker, Danielle (00:00:05) - Even though my work seems to fit my spark of type, I am constantly feeling unhappy. I'm wondering what other kinds of work might suit me and my spark type.

Jonathan Fields (00:00:16) - So have you ever felt burned out in work? At least on paper, that seemed so well aligned with your values and passions, interests, skills and spark a type that in your mind you just quote, shouldn't feel this way. Or at least you think you shouldn't, even though you care deeply about what you do. If, like so many, you're feeling depleted in your work on a level that quitting seems like the only option. You're not alone. In today's Sparked episode, our advice seeker Danielle is a physician who's been practicing for years and she finds herself in that place. She had hoped that pursuing a caring profession would fulfill her nurture or spark type, but in practice found herself miserable, overextended and maybe even ready to quit. Can reconnecting with her own needs and values show her a better path forward is the big question that we're exploring today.

Jonathan Fields (00:01:08) - And to dig into this challenging situation and to dig into this challenging situation, we're joined by a new Spark Brain Trust member Ivana Tau. So Ivana is the founder of Thriving Physicians and Thriving Idealist, where she coaches heart centered, mission driven physicians and other helping professionals who seek to make a positive impact in the world. And together, we explore the topic of burnout, especially in the context of a job that, at least according to its description, should be deeply fulfilling and energizing. And we tease out how to distinguish what's being asked of you on paper and the reality of your lived day to day experience. We dive into how we might rekindle meaning and joy in your work and reclaim energy and a sense of boundaries and agency along the way. So join us in this reflection. You'll take away not only insights about working through burnout and the field that you're called to, but also how you might rekindle meaning and joy in your own work, or discover an alternative path that better fits your true self. So let's explore this together.

Jonathan Fields (00:02:12) - As Yvonne offers Danielle, this is the beginning of something beautiful. So excited to share this conversation. I'm Jonathan Fields and this is sparked.

Advice Seeker, Danielle (00:02:26) - Hi, my name is Danielle. I go by pronouns. She her and I'm a physician in the Tri-State area. My primary spark type is nurturer, my shadow is advisor and my anti is essentialist. On paper, it seems like my job as a physician matches up perfectly with my spark type. I am usually very empathetic and I do enjoy the subject matter of medicine and the human body. However, for years and more since the pandemic and having children, I found myself increasingly angry and frustrated with my work. Having sometimes only 15 minutes with a patient leaves little time to understand them and to help them. And more than that, I've become extremely burnt out by the system and the constant barrage of patient issues I'm asked to solve in short periods of time. I find myself resentful of them and their medical issues, even though I know I'm technically good at what I do and I'm a good listener and observer.

Advice Seeker, Danielle (00:03:13) - But there's little time for me to nurture myself and my children. On top of that, I realized I am so depleted by my days because I am talking nonstop to 20 to 25 patients a day and then on the phone giving people their test results. And I am an introvert at heart. I'm confused that my current job seems to fit my spark A-type. Yet I'm miserable and I'm planning to leave in the next few months because I feel really badly about because it will devastate my patients. And I worked so long for this career. I don't have my next steps planned out yet, but I'm wondering if this is a common predicament that even though my work seems to fit my spark of type, I am constantly feeling unhappy. I'm wondering what other kinds of work might suit me and my spark type. Thank you so much for your help.

Jonathan Fields (00:03:58) - Avon. It is fantastic to be hanging out with you as always. You and I had a really great conversation where we went deep into burnout, but also like a lot of the ideas around it in a fuller episode earlier and you're back now as an esteemed member of the Spark Brain Trust, which I'm super excited about, we get to jam on a more regular basis.

Jonathan Fields (00:04:19) - Yay! And we have a listener question that has been submitted today that was just so perfect for your both your personal history and your work experience in your coaching. Yeah, that I was excited to be able to sort of jam on this with you as always. So we have on tap, as we've just heard, a question and a scenario set up from our listener, Danielle, who is a physician, and she's really questioning the path. But for reasons that are not necessarily endemic to what it means to practice medicine. And I know that you because so much of your coaching practice has focused around first responders in medicine, in health and well-being. Her questions come up on a really regular basis for you. Yes. So I'm excited to dive into them with you. Before we do that, let's just see this up. Danielle also shared that her primary archetype is the nurturer, and for those newer to those spark types, these are a set of impulses or imprints that help really drive what we are drawn to invest energy in and what it gives back to us.

Jonathan Fields (00:05:22) - The primary or sort of like the strongest impulse when you're a nurturer, that impulse is all about lifting others up. It's about giving care, taking care often when others either can't or won't. Her shadow or what we call the runner up is what she describes as the advisor. And that impulse. It's all about walking beside others through a process of growth. Yeah. And her anti archetype and the anti archetype is all about what is the work. That's the heaviest lift, that is the most draining and requires the greatest amount of recovery is the essentialist. And the essentialist work is all about creating systems and process order from chaos. That, by the way, is my anti archetype to mine too. So. So. So we're starting there. Danielle is a physician. She's been doing this for quite a while. That's sort of like her, her deeper impulses or imprints around this archetypes. Let's dive in. Yes. So so I want to kick this over to you now and and start out by asking, like when you heard Danielle just share the place that she's at in her work and her career right now.

Jonathan Fields (00:06:24) - What were some of the big themes or the big things that came to you?

Yvonne Ator (00:06:27) - Yeah, quite a few themes came up for me as I was listening to her first. She sounds exactly like quite a few of my clients. For some reason. There's this recurring combination of Nurturer advisor in medicine that I'm starting to track, and so I've started like counting the number of people who are showing up with this combination. So the first thing that came up to me for me was that so she's, she's busy with patients and she feels like she's in alignment with her spa archetype. But I actually don't really see her as being completely aligned in the sense that so I always think about with the sparkle type and with other things I like to think about in her authority, which is that you want to practice the spark type or the value with yourself first before you can practice it outward. And so she's doing the she's being the nurturer. I'm not really seeing room for the advisor yet where I'm not really seeing her. So the nurturer says, I've got you and she's spending time with, with patients.

Yvonne Ator (00:07:27) - But the thing is she's not really spending enough time with the patients to feel that sense of connection. So she's, you know, in medicine, you're, you know, 8 to 15 minutes lets, you know, churn these these, these patient visits out. And so part of that frustration is that, yeah, on the surface it seems like she's caring for people. But it's not just about like caring. It's about that connection as well. And with the nurturer, it's important to care and have the chance to be empathetic and connect. And in medicine, even though you're a nurturer, if there's no room to really connect and and practice that empathy, if you're just churning out those visits, then you're going to hit compassion fatigue really quickly because you're not having that, you know, that empathic connection. You're just it becomes this this road thing that you're doing.

Jonathan Fields (00:08:12) - Yeah. And I'm glad you started with that because Danielle shared twice in in she shared with us, she said, you know, like it seems like this profession is perfectly suited for my Sparky type.

Jonathan Fields (00:08:24) - But what you're saying is and this is what I was sort of thinking as well on the surface. Sure. Being a physician, like it's all about nurturing. It's about taking care of others, giving care. But the nature of the way that is often practiced, at least in the US based paradigm these days, the paradigm itself has now become almost an obstacle to fully expressing that deeper impulse to give care and take care to others because you don't have the chance to really do that in a way that if you're deeply compelled, you probably want.

Yvonne Ator (00:08:58) - Exactly. A lot of us, including myself, went into medicine with this idea of we're going to spend an hour of the patient, get to know them, get to know their families, take care of their needs. Any question that comes up, you're taking care of that need. Right. And so a lot of us, especially in my generation, we're experiencing that shift where I think the generation before us, they they got to practice some of that.

Yvonne Ator (00:09:20) - But our generation has gotten gotten to experience the corporatization of medicine. And so because of that, you don't really get to experience that connection that you're looking for, that chance to really nurture and take care of people. In fact, the way the system is now, you feel a lot of guilt because you don't really feel like you're taking care of people you're calling. She mentioned that she's calling the, you know, calling medicines in and calling in results. She's doing a lot of heavy lifting with the essentialist. So the essentialist creates order out of chaos. Right. So the nurturer I've got you the advisor guides to girl and the essentialist creates order out of chaos. So she's spending quite a lot of time, if not most of her time doing practicing as an essentialist. Where she's calling she's ordering tests. She's she's calling in the medications. She is calling in results. She's doing a lot of these administrative tasks. And so that in itself will deplete any one of us who are who have essentialist as our as our anti archetype.

Yvonne Ator (00:10:24) - But back to the inner authority that I was talking about, you can't really nurture others if you don't really have the space to nurture yourself, right? So with whenever you think about Spark type or whenever I think about Spark Archetype, I like to think about how am I practicing this in my relationship with myself so that I have two legs to stand on when I'm going to do this with others? Right? So as a nurturer, you really want to make the time and the space and create some boundaries so that you can nurture yourself first so you have that full cup, at least some. You have to have something in your cup to, to, to pour out, to nurture others. Right. And so there's not really any room for that. And then whatever she has probably, especially as an introvert and it's funny, a lot of my clients end up being like, I think 95% of them are also introverts and they say the same thing, which is that I'm giving, I'm talking to everyone, I'm out there, people leading, and then I come home and then have to take care of husband and kids.

Yvonne Ator (00:11:23) - And I just want to go in a room and just, you know, be in a room by myself or at least an hour before I interact with anyone. And I always say, You're an introvert. You have to treat yourself like an introvert, which means that you've been out depleting yourself all of this time. You have to be able to come home and fill up a little bit before you then have something to give your husband and your kids so she has no room to nurture herself. And I'm also not seeing any space for her to to guide, to grow. She has a little bit with her patients, but not really. And there's no room to do that with her kids neither. So she's spending most of her time as the essentialist and it's no surprise that she feels depleted.

Jonathan Fields (00:12:02) - Yeah. And you brought up the Guide to Grow, which is the impulse for the advisor. You know, one of the fundamental things that makes the advisor part of you feel like you're really connected. You can express this part of yourself.

Jonathan Fields (00:12:13) - It's also it's creating trust. Yes. You know, it's it's the ability to actually create a container of trust with another person or another group of people. And that's brutally hard to do in eight minute increments.

Yvonne Ator (00:12:26) - It's so hard, you know.

Jonathan Fields (00:12:27) - When you've got a line of people in the waiting room, it's like especially if you have if you're in a paradigm where maybe you have new patients on a regular basis, on a daily basis, you know, how do you and they're coming in because there's something that they want, you know, like there's a complaint, there's something wrong, there's something. And they want they want a resolution to that thing. And at the same time, you're charged with building a bond of trust and availability and vulnerability and compassion and understanding and knowing this person, which just keeps zooming out to the fundamental paradigm, makes it so hard to be able to actually get what you need when you're driven by these dual impulses of nurturing and advising, you know, like taking care and giving care and being able to guide others through growth.

Jonathan Fields (00:13:11) - And by the way, we're talking about that in this in the context of medicine. But the bigger message here, I think also for anyone listening, is that no matter what you say yes to as a job description on paper, be really, really alert to what the reality is of that job on a lived day to day experience. Because on paper you could be saying to yourself, but this this matches exactly who I am and what I needed in order to feel fully alive. And you keep reflecting back on what the actual job description was or what the title is or what you know. In theory it was supposed to be. Rather than looking at your lived day to day experience and realizing that is actually wildly in conflict. So I just wanted to zoom that lens out a little bit more. But let's dive back into. Situation here also. And I'm so glad you brought up the what she shared about being an introvert, too. And like I raised my hand like I feel that on a regular basis.

Jonathan Fields (00:14:07) - But I'm fascinated by the fact that you said so many of your clients are actually people who are actually in the practice of medicine and introverted. Do you have a sense for like what what the connection may be there?

Yvonne Ator (00:14:18) - I know. I'm not sure. I haven't really thought about it. I don't know if it's medicine itself or the people that I attract. And I've always attracted introverted people and pivoted. And I, I just noticed I was like, wow, 90 about 95% of my people are introverted and I'm not sure why. I haven't really spent some time thinking. I just thought maybe it's that I attract I attract introverted people.

Jonathan Fields (00:14:43) - Or maybe it's when they reach a point where they're in that profession and they're so burned out that part of what's actually layer on top of it is the fact that, you know, it is the very fact that their social orientation also makes it so much more difficult. So by the time they're dealing with a lot of pain and suffering, they they find their way to your doorstep.

Yvonne Ator (00:15:00) - That's true. Now that you mentioned that one of my most recent clients actually described this where she. I mean, she got to pick her hours, but for some reason, she tailored her day like the way she had seen her mentor tailored his day Now. So she's introverted and she has at least she had before we started working together. She had like patience back to back to back to back about 25 patients, 20 to 30 patients in a day. So and then she came to me completely just shredded, completely depleted. And she was like, you know, this is my schedule. I'm seeing all these patients. I'm introverted. And I said, Well, who created the schedule for you? And she said, Oh, I did. And I was like, Why did you your introverted, why did you schedule yourself this way? And she said, Well, that's how my mentor scheduled his himself. And I said, But is your mentor introverted? And she said, No, he's actually extroverted.

Yvonne Ator (00:15:55) - And I said, So you realize, do you know that as your mentor goes through the day, he's getting more and more energized because he's seeing more and more and more and more and more people. So I think and so what I got out of that was that the way medicine has turned now, where you're just like churning out people, I think it's hitting the introvert introverts harder than it is the extroverts, because extroverts are kind of like, well, even though I'm tired and they're also getting depleted because they're being overworked. And I think this is also in teaching as well and everything. But because of your orientation, you're more likely to be depleted because you're, you know, you're constantly peopling you're constantly peopling while the extroverts, even though they might be tired and exhausted from the work because they're interacting with more and more people, they're drawing in more energy. So that gives them more sustenance. So that's so interesting. So this is hitting the introverts harder.

Jonathan Fields (00:16:46) - Yeah, that makes so much sense to me.

Jonathan Fields (00:16:49) - So let's let's flip around a little bit here and talk about some when you think about where Danielle is right now, she's literally like, you know, thinking about like, do I actually need to leave the profession, what some wisdom offer, some thoughts, things that she might think about either considering or doing to a, see if she can actually just feel better in the moment and then think about like what? What makes sense coming next.

Yvonne Ator (00:17:15) - So I felt so much Danielle if you're out there listening, I felt so much compassion for you and just your story and and I just want you to know you're not alone. There's so many people who are going through something similar and you did nothing wrong and you're doing the best you can. I think when someone is in this state where they're ready to quit in a few months, they're in that tunnel of burnout where like they can't see anything other than and quitting. And I love this work so much, you know, coaching the self reflection all of this work because it gets to it pulls you out of that tunnel so that you can kind of get gain some perspective.

Yvonne Ator (00:17:56) - So one thing I'll say is I know you feel like you want to jump right now because that's the only option, but you actually have other options. And so what we want to do is slow the tape down and take care of you first. So if it means like going part time, I mean, since you're already, like ready to quit, I mean, financially, if you can handle going part time, that might be something to consider so that you can have the time to start to refill that cup. You've been depleted for so long. The land, the soil is so dry. Let's start watering that soil a little bit and then helping you remember why you went into this profession to begin with. I mean, based on what you've said, chances are the reason why you went into medicine is not was what's happening on the ground. Right. And so when there's a space between your professed values and your practice values, that space is where burnout lives. And so let's spend some time getting to remember like what's important to you? What are your, what are your values and how can you bring your spark of type into alignment with the values that are important to you? And are these values in alignment with where you're working? It seems like you actually really enjoy medicine based on what you said.

Yvonne Ator (00:19:04) - You said you love the human body and learning about and the science behind it and all of that. You mentioned that and it doesn't seem like you hate medicine. It seems like you're actually love it. So let's spend some time getting to remember why you went into this profession and remembering what your values are. Can you take care of yourself as you're doing that work? And then can we bring this archetype in alignment with your values? By that I mean so you're being a nurturer advisor looks completely differently on one person than the other based on their values, right? So if you value like creativity and connection and adventure and all of that, it will look completely different from someone who values like responsibility or financial stability or family and all of that. Can we start to bring all of those, bring you back in alignment with the things that matter to you? So those are my first thoughts. The other thing the other thoughts I had were around boundaries. And I think going part time might help with this, where knowing what you can't really set boundaries if you don't know what your values.

Yvonne Ator (00:20:03) - Or if you don't know what's important to you. So can we start to set some boundaries? If creativity is important to you, what's okay and what's not okay in terms of how you spend your time and energy? Right? Can we set some boundaries so that you're bringing more creativity into your life? Can we set some boundaries where you're able to take care of yourself? Like whether it's meditation or time in nature, If time and nature is important to you, can we start to bring put boundaries around time? You said you mentioned your kids that you felt badly that you're not able to spend time nurturing your kids. Can we set some boundaries around that? So you're feeling like you're having the time and space to take care of your kids or connect with your kids? You didn't mention a spouse or a partner, but if you do right, are you spending enough time there? Right. Can we carve out some time for date night the things that are important to you? Can we start to spend time on the things that matter to you, the priorities in your life, your values and all of that, so that you can start feeling like yourself again? And I think with that, when you start to connect with what's important to you and do some more self discovery in terms of your archetype and other tools, then you can start to think, okay, is this really the profession for me or not? But right now, just where you are, it feels like you want to jump off, you know, and just burn everything up.

Yvonne Ator (00:21:17) - That would not really be be in alignment with what you said, which is that you really do like medicine. And unfortunately, this the system can be very unforgiving, unforgiving when you just jump off and torch it. So can we do it in a way that is that supports you and that and that is an alignment where it nurtures you because you're a nurturer, but that also nurtures you and gives you space for you to grow as an advisor as well. And can we start to. The other thing I would say is, you know, if your institution allows for scribes, right, scribes help with the paperwork and the administrative duties, if your institution allows for scribes, can you ask for one to be assigned to you to help you with the calling, calling the pharmacies and calling and the results and all of that? So those are my first few thoughts. Just again moving you out of that tunnel of burnout so you can start to see because once you're in that tunnel, that's all you see. But when when you take a few steps back, then you can see like there's a whole universe out there of options for you, especially as a practicing physician, a licensed physician, There's so many options, but you won't be able to see those if you just like jump out in a way that doesn't support you.

Jonathan Fields (00:22:31) - Yeah, and I love that. You know, it's sort of like saying, okay, find a way to create a little bit of space, get reacquainted with your values. What's really important to you, why you said yes to this in the first place and how well it actually aligns or doesn't align the actual real day to day practice, establishing boundaries or really looking at all the different parts of your life where you feel a sense of agency and clarity around what those boundaries are and where you feel comfortable. Like you have the power to actually establish those boundaries. And the last part you just added in, I thought was really super valuable too, which is this notion of to the extent that you find yourself doing a substantial amount of the work of your anti speaker type or the kind of work that is most emptying for you, and you have the ability to effectively delegate that to somebody else, then take advantage of that. And all of these things will help you just kind of reset from a psychological standpoint so that you don't feel like you wake up every day.

Jonathan Fields (00:23:33) - The weight of the world is on you. You're just you can never pull yourself out of that burnout cycle and you can never see any option other than just blowing it up, you know, down the road. Maybe Danielle actually does do all of these things and gets to a place of like clarity and space where she can really just spend time reasoning and thinking this through. And she maybe she does even at that point say like, this is still not right for me. But at that point, as you described, often you just start to see so many possibilities that you don't see when you're in that cave of burnout, because literally every day is just survival. Yes. So I love these recommendations. And I think those are those are great first steps for Danielle as she really thinks about what comes next here.

Yvonne Ator (00:24:19) - Yeah, it's really tempting to just and again, so much compassion. I've been there. I was the one that jumped without any plans and and it's what I've told my my people for years like you don't have to if I'd known if I had had an Yvonne who said, you know Yvonne, you're just going through a really hard time and here are some tools, here are some skills.

Yvonne Ator (00:24:42) - Let's help you remember why you went into this to begin with. And like, I would have probably stayed in medicine, right? Because I loved it and I was good at it, but I just could not I was I felt like I wasn't helping anyone. So I really feel that compassion and resonance. I feel also excited for her because I know that this is the beginning. Of something beautiful. It seems like it's chaotic right now and painful. But I feel encouraged because I've seen so many people go through this and come out thriving. And so I know that that's possible for you, Daniel. Give yourself the same the same space and attention and nurturing that you give to others. You will have to really give yourself that nurturing and also give yourself space to grow. And if it's possible to get some guidance to grow, allow yourself to receive some advising as well. So the thing that you're wanting to give, find a way to to bring that to into your own relationship with yourself so that you can have more capacity to do more of that because right now you're completely depleted and again, that you did nothing wrong.

Yvonne Ator (00:25:49) - You're doing the best you can. It's just the way the system is. And I'm sending you lots of of of love and peace and strength.

Jonathan Fields (00:25:59) - Thank you. That sounds like a great place for us. To wrap up this week's conversation as well. Danielle, I hope you're listening in and you found value in that. Everybody else, even if this might not be your exact scenario, there are so many lessons I can transfer out of this because we all at some point experience some level of dissonance or conflict between what we said yes to and what's actually happening on a day to day basis. And sometimes even paradigms that push us to a place where we're so overwhelmed or overworked or burned out that we have trouble seeing what's actually going on and seeing any other option than just completely blowing everything up. Thank you, Yvonne. Always awesome to hang out with you. Thank you for your wisdom and your heart and for everyone else in our fabulous listening community. We'll see you all here next time.

Yvonne Ator (00:26:44) - Take care. Take care.

Yvonne Ator (00:26:45) - Bye.

Jonathan Fields (00:26:49) - Hey, so I hope you enjoyed that conversation. Learned a little something about your own quest to come alive and work in life and maybe feel a little bit less alone along this journey to find and do what sparks you. And if you'd love to share your own moment and question with us, we would love to hear from you. Just go ahead and click on the submissions link in the show notes to get the details on how to do that. And remember, if you're at a moment of exploration looking to find and do or even create work that makes you come more fully alive, that brings more meaning and purpose and joy into your life, take the time to discover your own personal spark. A type for free at Spark type. It'll open your eyes to a deeper understanding of yourself and open the door to possibility like never before. And hey, if you're finding value in these conversations, please just take an extra second right now to follow and rate sparked in your favorite podcast app. This is so helpful in helping others find the show and growing our community so that we can all come alive and work in life together.

Jonathan Fields (00:27:53) - Until next time. I'm Jonathan Fields. And this is sparked.