How to Advocate for a Point-of-View With Empathy and Intention

LinkedIn: [00:00:00] Linkedin presents.

Jonathan Fields: [00:00:12] So have you ever struggled to find the right words when tensions run high? Or wanted to stand up for what you believe in, but risked having adverse consequences? Maybe even in a work context? Losing your work, your job in divided times? How do we speak out thoughtfully? With intelligence, with heart, with nuance? Today we're exploring moving through polarizing moments with intention, with sparked Braintrust member Yvonne Ator. Yvonne is the founder of Thriving Physicians and Thriving Idealist, where she coaches heart-centered, mission-driven physicians and other helping professionals who seek to make a positive difference in the world. And together we're asking, well, what if there was a way to stand up for what you believe in while still seeing the humanity in those you disagree with, and also stepping into the conversation in a more intentional and responsive way rather than reactive, misguiding or harmful. When circumstances lead to strong disagreement mixed with deep emotion and a sense of urgency, people often feel an expectation to speak or act with immediacy. Yet taking a stance, let alone a public stance, sometimes comes with certain very real risks and responsibilities. How do you determine the right course aligned with your values? We discuss slowing down to listen and understanding issues in their complexity.

Jonathan Fields: [00:01:34] So we look at the cost of reactionary actions that divide how and when to maintain empathy amid dehumanizing times, and what happens when we lose our humanity, demeaning the other side while unwittingly dehumanizing ourselves? How do we find common ground? How do we speak our truths, advocate for a point of view while also honoring complexity and nuance and humanity along the way? That's where we're headed today. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is SPARKED.

Jonathan Fields: [00:02:14] Yvonne Ator. It is always awesome to be hanging out with you, member of the Sparked Brain Trust and also just dear friend and awesome human being and advisor to so many other human beings in times that sometimes aren't easy for us. Today is one of our SPARKED hot takes, where we basically take a topic that often is top of mind for us. Things that we've been having conversations about in our own families, in our work, in our teams, with clients. That's coming up a lot over and over and over again. And we find ourselves having this conversation just between you and I, at a moment in time where it feels like, to so many of the world is just kind of melting down, that things are blowing up on a political scale, on a human scale, on an interpersonal scale in work.

Jonathan Fields: [00:03:02] And there are ruptures happening, and there are a lot of divisions like this is not new. It's certainly we've seen this bubble up in all domains of life, especially in the last five years or so. But this has been a part of culture for generations now, and especially depending on who you are. Yes, and what culture you have been a part of for your entire lives. But this feels like a moment where the level of everything is being pushed to 11, and a lot of people are feeling that. They're feeling it viscerally and emotionally, intellectually, physically, and at the same time they're feeling called to say something. Yeah, to do something in a public way. Sometimes others are calling on them.

Yvonne Ator: [00:03:57] Right.

Jonathan Fields: [00:03:58] To do that. And yet so many times they feel like they are not there yet. Okay. And yet they want to do what they consider to be in their minds as the quote, right thing.

Yvonne Ator: [00:04:12] Right.

Jonathan Fields: [00:04:13] For this moment in time. Not just because they want to be seen in a particular way, because of who they are, their beliefs and their values. And they don't know what that thing is.

Yvonne Ator: [00:04:24] Yeah.

Jonathan Fields: [00:04:24] And they often feel like there's no right answer for them. Like no matter what they do, whether they choose inaction or action, whether they choose to say something or to not say something, whether they choose to quote, pick a side or not, pick a side that they quote can't win. And people don't want to win in these situations. They just want to feel like they can be who they are and not do harm. And this is coming up in conversation over and over and over and over in my world. And I know with you also and with your clients, this has become a topic that is really it's a common conversation for you.

Yvonne Ator: [00:05:07] Yes. Yeah, a lot is happening in the world right now, and I think there's always that impulse to, yeah, probably from within your own compass to do something and say something. But there's also that external pressure, like you said, where people are saying, say something, do something. And what I'm finding in my conversations with my clients and, and just in my circles, right, that it's really important to come. And we've talked about values many times, but to really come into alignment with who you are, rather than just being reactive and doing what people are asking you to do, right? So there's this sense of, you know, a lot of people shooting off the hip, and I'm going to use the word performative, right, performing the thing. But there's also the deep intention to want to be relevant, to want to make that positive impact that they're wanting to make, to see the change that they want to see. But I think the risk with that is that by not being intentional, by just shooting off the hip, that you can actually do more harm than good. So with all the things that are happening in the world right now, a lot of us feelers and empaths and those of us who have to go to work while you're also feeling all the things right, it can be overwhelming and you're feeling blown and you're feeling like you don't know what to do or you don't know what to say.

Yvonne Ator: [00:06:33] And what I'm finding myself saying to the people in my life, my clients and my people, my family and friends is, you know, be a human being, really come into your body and look at your world and listen. And if you don't know about something, learn about it and check in with yourself to see how do I feel about this? How does this resonate with my values? What do I stand for and then choose to act from that place of groundedness and alignment? And when I say grounded. This also mean? Like making sure that you're taking care of yourself, making sure that you. I know someone who wrote a book called Uncertainty, and in that book they they mentioned certainty anchors. But what are the things that you can do in the middle of the chaos to ground yourself, to take care of yourself? Are you eating well? Are you moving your body or you're meditating? Are you getting time in nature? What are the things you're doing to ground yourself so that you can really see and hear what's happening in your world, and and so that you can engage from a place of presence and groundedness and being able to move in alignment so you can know what you stand for.

Yvonne Ator: [00:07:53] But if you're not taking care of yourself, you'll move in a way that is can be disruptive or harmful and counter to what it is you're trying to do. But when you take care of yourself and ground yourself, and then you can move in a way that supports the thing that you're going towards. And so those are the conversations I'm having. The thing is. It's complicated. And we're looking for. We're looking for the sound bite. We're looking for the easy fix. We're looking for, you know, that quick fix. But when we're dealing with things that are complicated, it really it's really important to to listen and pay attention to the nuances and the subtleties of that situation and all of the baggage and all of the history that comes with whatever event we're looking at. And things are not usually as simple as they appear. Which underscores the importance of really paying attention and doing your homework and research so that when you do take action, it's aligned, it's supportive, it's authentic for you, not what someone is expecting you to do, but what's aligned and authentic for you.

Jonathan Fields: [00:09:04] Yeah, I mean, that makes so much sense to me. The notion of really taking time to pause, to take care of yourself, to revisit what do you truly believe? What are your deepest values and how do they inform this moment, this experience, this conflict, this disagreement, this differing of opinions or points of view or worldviews? You know, I think it's really important. And that doesn't often happen unless you're somebody who has been deep into that exploration for years yourself, unless you're somebody who's been deep into the ideas, the systems, the policies, the procedures that may be being centered right now. And you really you've spent a lot of time thinking about it and doing the analysis and being really well informed from multiple sources and trying to strip past bias and see, like what? What actually how can I get as close to the, you know, like the truth or at least understand the different subjective realities and how they intersect with each other? So I can figure out where I am in this conversation. That takes time, and that also takes a willingness to go there. And some people have lived in that space for a long time. So when moments hit that require you to actually like voice how you feel, you're ready. Okay. Many people are not. And that can be again in big geopolitical events. That can be in something that is a small localized conflict in your business or your team. Many people just haven't gone there until the moment happens and then they're like, okay, I'm being called on to quote, pick a side, because oftentimes those who championed one point of view or another will see any particular moment as not having complexity or nuance and being crystal clear.

Jonathan Fields: [00:10:55] This is crystal clear. You're either here or you're here. And if you're not on one side, you're against the other, or if you're not on the other side, you're against the opposite one. Yeah. And there is no room. There's no space in the ecosystem for nuance, for openness, for empathy, for complexity. And that, you know, like, this is the time where you have to quote, pick a side. And those voices often are the loudest. Yes, and the strongest. And because of that, they tend to be the dominant voices in any particular moment, with profound disagreement and often profound disruption. And that brings with it an energy that says, well, I guess this is the only thing, but the reality of most of the human condition and most of conflict on every level in the human condition is not that exactly. You know, it is much more more complicated and much more involved. And oftentimes this is the moment where. We feel compelled to just act or do something, sometimes in a public way. And I think one of the big challenges now is that that call to, you know, like put your flag in the sand is often a call to do it on a social platform. And these platforms are inherently built not to support nuance, complexity and empathy. In fact, they are designed. The algorithms that drive them are often designed to increase the distribution of messages that are deeply polarizing.

Yvonne Ator: [00:12:33] Yes.

Jonathan Fields: [00:12:33] So there's so much tension in how people feel, both equipped and resourced, to step into this moment. And the platforms that people are being called to state their point of view on, and the human need to actually understand yourself and how you feel and also understand the moment and what's happening around you.

Yvonne Ator: [00:13:01] Yeah.

Yvonne Ator: [00:13:04] And I love what you said about the fact that people who are used to those spaces, there's no room for nuances. And the thing is, they're so practiced in those spaces. Again, they're doing good work, right? They're activists. And but the thing is, they've had practice. They've become accustomed to the that path. And most people are not. So it's almost like you've been working out right. And you're able to, you know, go and do the marathon easily, but most people haven't left the couch. Right. And you're asking them to come up and do the marathon with you, which is why it's so important to like, do your own work to to take your time. You're on your own timeline, you're on your own journey. And yes, there's room for there are times when you have to step up and do what needs to be done right, but that usually comes out of time that you've spent being clear about what you stand for, right? When you're able to do that work, then when when the time calls for it, it's easier for you to get up and go. The problem is, well, at least what I'm seeing in social media is everyone's getting up and going without really reflecting, and then they're having to come back and backtrack and apologize for all the harm that they've done, because they didn't take the time to really reflect or move in an intentional way. You mentioned the word empathy, and it's a word I think about a lot.

Yvonne Ator: [00:14:30] Doctor Theresa Wiseman talks about empathy as having five parts. So you have actually four parts. And I think Brené Brown added mindfulness as part of it. But so five parts of empathy you have mindfulness, being able to recognize emotion, being able to communicate emotion non-judgment and being able to take perspective, put yourself in somebody else, someone else's shoes. So those are the five parts. So the first thing about being empathetic is that you have to be mindful. You actually have to pay attention to what is going on. So if you're just jumping in without like paying attention, then it's going to be very hard for you to be empathetic if you're jumping in and judging. Once you're in judgment, you're no longer in empathy. Now you're in sympathy or whatever, right? You're looking looking down on someone and feeling sorry for them, right? If you're not able to put yourself in someone else's shoes, that's also, again, not being empathetic. So those five parts recognizing motion, communicating motion, being mindful, and all of that requires intentionality to be able to move with compassion and take action. Right. Compassion requires that you take action to be able to even move in compassion, you have to be able to recognize what's going on. And I keep emphasizing this because I'm seeing so much harm being done by so-called people feeling and feeling all the feelings and being empathetic. But there's not that mindfulness. There's not that intentionality with it.

Yvonne Ator: [00:15:58] So then you're just being driven by emotions and just, you know, behaving in a way that's, um, that's not supportive of and not aligned for you. So I think taking the time to be mindful, pay attention, recognize emotion, communicate that emotion with the people around you to make sure that you're actually getting a good assessment of what's going on, really staying out of judgment. I think I'm seeing a lot of bullying now where people are judging people for not doing the things that they're supposed to do, quote unquote, or depending on the conflict. They're so busy judging and dehumanizing, right. Which then feeds that feeds more into that conflict and more into the harm that's being done. Once you start dehumanizing the other side, we're lost. Right? Because then now you're when you dehumanize someone, you'll have to dehumanize yourself, right? You'll have to lose that human part of yourself in order to dehumanize someone else. So it's really important for us to, as we move forward and take action aligned action, whether it's speaking up or taking care of the people around us who are suffering because of the conflict, really making sure that we're being human beings first, keeping our hearts open, keeping our hearts soft, not buying into the cynicism of the time of the conflict, and making sure that we move from a place of that alignment. Right. And so those are the thoughts that are coming up for me as you were talking. Yeah.

Jonathan Fields: [00:17:35] I mean, you bring up the point about dehumanization, I think is really important to center. Also, oftentimes when there's a really strong, conflicting point of view or conflict, one side will see themselves as like, this is the side of human, of humanity. And the other side of the conflict is the side of dehumanization. And it's the side of like stripping humanity. Or you are attacking my humanity. Therefore, you're no longer worthy of me recognizing your humanity. And then. So now you have this dynamic in a conflict where that is present and that is a deep and powerful and profound divide. And, look, neither of us are minimizing sometimes the the pain or the violence or the history that goes into these conflicts, which can be very deep and very real. We're we're not we are not ignoring that. There's no invisibility to that. It is real. And yet at the same time, when this dynamic unfolds and we not only step into a disagreement, a conflict with the immediate default being to to no longer recognize the humanity of the other side, then that becomes and anybody who doesn't immediately make a public statement in support of our side also loses their qualifications as being recognized and giving dignity and respect as a human being to. Exactly. So it becomes this like deep and profound rift that is no longer just with the people from the original conflict, but also with anyone who not only supports the opposite of point of view, but also doesn't immediately rise up and support like the the that one point of view.

Jonathan Fields: [00:19:23] And when we dehumanize people, everybody loses. Even like the side that is doing the dehumanizing loses, because you cannot dehumanize another person without simultaneously dehumanizing yourself, without realizing that that is what's happening. Um, you know, it's it does harm on every level. And again, not to negate in any way, shape or form the intensity of any particular conflict and the very real harm that often lies at the center of it. But there's a compound effect that we often bring to it when we bring the lens of dehumanization into any disagreement, and then and then create the ripple effect of layering that on top of whether people step up to support or oppose or stay silent. And also when the expectation is if it's not done on, quote, my timeline, right. That's not okay. You do not have the right to think this through because it is so quote clear to me. Well, what the obvious answer is, it must be clear to you too. And you no longer have the right, the ability to to sit here and do the work yourself to figure out where you stand. You have to you have to pick a side, do so publicly, then go do the work to figure it out. I've already done the work, but it doesn't matter, right? And that's where again, we get into so much trouble.

Yvonne Ator: [00:20:57] So much trouble.

Jonathan Fields: [00:20:58] And again, we're not saying that anybody gets to opt out of doing the work.

Yvonne Ator: [00:21:02] Right.

Jonathan Fields: [00:21:03] But there's a timing issue that happens here that makes the problem so much more potentially painful and alienating and dehumanizing.

Yvonne Ator: [00:21:14] Absolutely. It reminds me of the conversation we had around accountability, right? Where with this dehumanization we're talking about, what happens is you've put an identity of instead of focusing on the behavior, right, and having the bandwidth and the clarity of thought to focus on the behavior and the actions that need to be taken, because you've dehumanized in a way there is no because you're focusing on now the identity. And those are the bad guys, and we're the good guys. There's no room, there's no bridge. Right. And so it's really important to focus on the issues, right? Yes. We do have to take action. This is not we're not talking about whether or not we do what's right. No, you will do what's right. But it's how what you do is how you go about it is just as important. Right? And there has to be room for going about it in a way that preserves your dignity and your sense of humanity and the dignity and humanity of everyone involved. There has to be that third way. It's not us and them. There's a third way. And finding that third way.

Yvonne Ator: [00:22:23] And then with the practice, of course, and people are probably saying, oh, there's no room like it has to happen. Now, the more we practice, the shorter that recovery time, right? The more the more we will to jump to whatever it is that we need to do. The thing we're talking about is that because people are not, as far as I'm seeing, people have not had the space to really think or reflect or practice, then they're being more reactive. We want to be responsive. Right. I was talking to you about, you know, man's search for meaning and the idea, the idea that, you know, between stimulus and response. Right. There's a gap and that space is, you know, where the power is. And what's happening is we're not, we're not we don't have that gap. We're jumping straight from stimulus to response. And it's not response really is reactive. Right? So we want to be able to respond. In order to be able to respond, we have to have that space to choose the right action, aligned action, authentic action. And that's what we're talking about.

Jonathan Fields: [00:23:26] Yeah. So as we come full circle in this, I think what I'm hearing is the one it is important to do the work to think through these things, to feel what you need to feel and to decide where you stand and what feels right to you. I think at the same time. It's also important to get clear on who you are. Yes, to really revisit what are my values and how do they fold into this moment? What are my beliefs and how do they fold into this moment? Do I have the knowledge to make an informed, to develop an informed point of view about this particular moment? And if not, that doesn't mean that you get to tap out. That means like, well, what what do I need to do then to be informed at a level where I feel like I can understand this in a way that will lead me to what feels like right action to me. And then how do I resource myself for this moment? Because you may be feeling a lot of emotion, a lot of pain, a lot of stress, a lot of anxiety. In this particular experience, how do I, as you described, to find those certainty anchors? What are my practices that allow me to ground myself in this moment and feel resourced and then what is right action for me? You know, no matter what anyone else is telling me is the appropriate action to take or the appropriate thing to say, what is it for me? What actually does that look like for me, and how how will I take action on that? Like how will I operationalize it? Or there? Is there more that did we miss something here or did I miss something? And sort of like summarizing this conversation?

Yvonne Ator: [00:25:15] The thing that I keep circling back to is being a human being. We cannot afford to lose our humanity in the face of cynicism and in the face of real pain. Real pain can deaden us, right? We can become jaded and cynical. Rightfully so. It makes sense, right? We can have that learned helplessness that comes from being exposed to situations that make us feel like we can't do anything about, right? According to Martin Seligman's research. But I think it's imperative that we hold on to hope however we can. However we define hope, hold on to our humanity, respecting our own humanity and our own, and being able to operate in a way that supports us and others in a way that maintains our dignity or keeps our dignity intact. There's a way to move through the world that supports us and everyone involved. When we start dehumanizing and debasing others, we're doing that to ourselves, even if we don't see that in the moment. So I think that's for me, that's the anchor. I'll keep returning to the idea of we're first human beings and not necessarily human doings, but human beings, and really holding on to our hearts and keeping our hearts taking, tending to our hearts and staying open rather than letting the cynicism and the pain of the world deaden us and dehumanize us and others.

Jonathan Fields: [00:26:51] Yeah. Thank you for adding that in. I think it's just an important moment to be thinking about these things. And hopefully, if you're listening and here's some of what we shared will help you, will help you think through this moment how you feel about it and how you move through it. Because there will be others. There will be other disagreements, conflicts, moments, experiences large and small that unfold and work in life, in relationships, on a global scale throughout all of our lives. And the more I think we can understand what feels right in moments like this for us individually, how we move into them, the more we can move into them from a place of intentionality. And I think that really matters and humanity. Yvonne, thanks so much, as always for being a thought partner in this and to our fabulous listening community. Thanks so much for tuning in. We will see you all here again next week. Take care. Thank you. Hey, so I hope you enjoyed that conversation. Learned a little something about your own quest to come alive and work in life, and maybe feel a little bit less alone along this journey to find and do what sparks you.

Jonathan Fields: [00:27:59] And if you'd love to share your own moment and question with us, we would love to hear from you. Just go ahead and click on the submissions link in the show notes to get the details on how to do that. And remember, if you're at a moment of exploration, looking to find and do or even create work that makes you come more fully alive, that brings more meaning and purpose and joy into your life, take the time to discover your own personal sparketype for free at sparketype.com. It'll open your eyes to a deeper understanding of yourself and open the door to possibility like never before. And hey, if you're finding value in these conversations, please just take an extra second right now to follow and rate SPARKED in your favorite podcast app. This is so helpful in helping others find the show and growing. Our community so that we can all come alive and work in life together. Until next time. I'm Jonathan Fields and this is SPARKED.