How to avoid the allure of the weeds and get back to the big picture

Jonathan Fields: [00:00:09] So you ever feel like you spend just way too much time that tactical details and lose sight of the bigger picture, especially when you don't have to be doing so much of the detailed work, but you somehow just can't stop yourself from doing it. Well, you're not alone. We have all felt the temptation to retreat into the comfort zone of tackling familiar tasks, instead of venturing into the unknown strategic domains, but what drives this tendency? How much of it is practical necessity versus psychological coping mechanism? Or a fear based response to the unknown? In this week's SPARKED hot take, that's what we're diving into. Exploring why leaders often struggle to find the right balance between high level vision and in the weeds execution. And joining me today to offer insights and practical tools is SPARKED Brain Trust, regular founder of Parachute Executive Coaching, acclaimed executive coach, advisor to senior leaders from more than two decades, and the author of two great books, The Accidental Alpha Woman and The Complete Executive Karen Wright. Together we ask, why do leaders often get stuck spending too much time on tactical details and in the weeds? Instead of thinking more strategically and given the immense challenges of the past few years, are some leaders justified in feeling they have to be in the weeds due to a lack of resources and capacity in their own organizations? So tune in to this episode for an enlightening exploration of the challenges that leaders face in balancing strategic thinking with tactical execution.

Jonathan Fields: [00:01:36] You'll come away with a refreshed perspective and some practical strategies for avoiding the allure of the weeds. Let's dive in. I'm Jonathan Fields and this is SPARKED. Karen rate. We are having this conversation shortly after we have turned the page into an entirely new year where so many people are stepping into it. So many people have done some year end processing. A lot of people have talked about doing year end processing and completely didn't do any of it, and were in a moment where a lot of people are sort of like looking at the year ahead and they're trying to figure out what's going on. Where do I want to go? What changes do I make? How do I get proactive? How do I create a plan? How do we get everyone enrolled in this? And at the same time, they're just completely stuck in the weeds on a day to day basis. Like all this stuff that's supposed to be frontal lobe activities like proactive planning, productivity, all the strategy that we quote feel like we should do right now. And we see the value of and we know it's important intellectually, we're sitting there saying, yes, of course, this is where I need to be. And yet this feeling of being quote in the weeds is so pervasive. Tell me what you're seeing out in the world, in the workplace, with your clients. And conversations in this context.

Karen Wright: [00:03:14] Ah, there's a giant opportunity for more leaders to really step up and lead. But what I'm finding is that the weeds are really warm and comfortable place. The weeds are really satisfying, and when confronted with something that might be hard or something that might be challenging to get people on board with, or something that might take things in a new, maybe uncomfortable direction. You know, any of these things that leaders are really supposed to be doing? When confronted with all of that, the temptation is huge to just slip back down into the details and tick things off the to do list, because that's incredibly satisfying. So I think that for a lot of people, the weeds, as we talk about, you know, the details and the day to day and the things that could and ought to be done by other people, in most cases, there are really warm and comfortable place, and I think people get tucked in and stuck.

Jonathan Fields: [00:04:07] Um, tell me how you're seeing this show up on a day to day basis.

Karen Wright: [00:04:12] I have a client who is doing her very best to lead her team of really senior people to think about strategy and to think about direction, and to spend time with their direct reports and talk about growth and development. And yet their cross-functional partners are wondering why the most senior people don't know all the information, don't have the market share numbers, the budget numbers, the whatever it is, the details. Right? So, you know, the higher up you go, the less possible it is to contain all of the details in your head, and the more your job is to know who to ask as opposed to have it all in your hand. But this one particular client is being confronted regularly with peers, people at her very senior level, wondering why she's not more attached, more connected to more in tune with the minutia of the day to day. That's one one example from just today. Yeah.

Jonathan Fields: [00:05:02] I mean, it's interesting because you talk about getting lost in the weeds, I think is something where I feel like often there's an association that says, well, oh, that's something that that is more likely to rear its head, certainly in the earlier parts of our career, when like that's kind of our job is to do a lot of detail, a lot of checklist type of stuff, and not necessarily that that assumption is even true either. But I feel like there's a lot of the assumption that says, well, as we stay in an organization longer, as we begin to rise up, as we begin to go into management or leadership that, you know, like part of the assumption there is that, you know, we will we will be thinking more strategically at a higher level, and we'll let go of a lot of those other things. And in fact, we probably it would be helpful if we did. But as you open the conversation, sharing, one of the reasons that it seems like we often don't is that the weeds can be a really comfortable place to be. So I want you to unpack that part of it for me.

Karen Wright: [00:06:00] Well, anything that invites us to try something new or to venture into new territory, stretch ourselves a little bit. You know, I often say to clients, stretch by definition, is going to hurt a little. You know, stretch is going to be uncomfortable. And I think that's part of it. It's like, oh, hang on. If I'm not taking things off the to do list. And by the way, this is not just about people in corporate jobs. This is people running their own businesses and limiting themselves in terms of their impact and their growth, because they do stay still very immersed in the day to day. But, you know, anything that requires us to do something that we don't already know how to do is, by definition, going to feel uncomfortable. And we humans are generally conditioned to steer away from discomfort. I would say the last few years have put so many of us so far in discomfort, that maybe there's a little bit of an extra reluctance to take that on if we have a choice. Yeah.

Jonathan Fields: [00:06:53] What's interesting to me about that also is that the weeds are the things where so often we complain about having to do those things. Yes. And often we're like, well, nobody's going to do. The way I would do it also. So I have to do it no matter where I am, no matter what level of leadership I am or as you described. If you own your own business, I think you're more susceptible to this than anything else. And I'm raising my hand right here because I'm doing this. So me too many times, and I'm sure I will again in the future, even though I like I know these things, I know how important it is to allocate time to work on the business, not just in the business. And yet I find myself doing these things saying, but it's not going to get done at the same. So I feel like part of it, like completely agree. I'm nodding along as you're saying. Yes. Like when we get up into those places where you need to stretch yourself, where you get strategic, where you're a part of that just intrinsically is making decisions where we are moving into a place of personal and organizational growth, which means we don't know how it's going to end. We don't know if we or the organization or our teams are properly equipped or resourced or skilled to actually do these things. So it's a little bit terrifying. It is, you know, because we just we have to get behind something that we don't know how it's going to turn out. And as much as we complain about, quote, having to do those things over here, on the one hand we grumble about it. And yet on the other hand, we take solace in the fact that at least we know we can do it. Like we're not. Like we don't actually have to step out into the abyss to do those things. We may not like doing them, you know, like we may, but at least there's there's a certain amount of certainty to them that there isn't. And the other stuff, and we always default to certainty.

Karen Wright: [00:08:37] I wonder if anyone has ever written a book called uncertainty. Let me think. Somebody should talk about that. Somebody should write that book. One of the things I have said, I don't know how many times to clients is if the thing has to be done your way, you are going to have to do it because no one else will do it your way. By definition, even if you teach them all of your steps and secrets, it will still be their way. And every time you ask someone to replicate something that you have done a particular way, you're going to be disappointed. So part of the growth edge is appreciating that just because it's not done your way, it might be just fine, it might work well, or it might work well enough to provide a learning opportunity for the person so they can then figure out their own better way.

Jonathan Fields: [00:09:20] So let me ask a practical question about this feeling of spending too much time in the weeds, but also having this simultaneously, having this script going in your head that says, but I have to be here right now. Are there situations right now because it's been a rough couple of years for a lot of organizations and a lot of times, you know, like the resources are less, um, there are fewer people and the expectations that they're going to do more. Are you also seeing circumstances where people do say, I just feel like I'm stuck in the weeds here? I know, I know, I want to be doing this other type of work, but I'm just I'm in the weeds here where. But they're also saying, I've looked at the state of things. I've tried to get as objective as I can. I've tried to figure out, is this just fear or speaking? And I keep looking back in the organization where we are, what we have to accomplish and what the resources are available to us, and saying, I actually have to be doing this right now because there's nobody else around who actually can do it. It's not even about, well, somebody else could be doing this, but it wouldn't be the way I would do it. But there's literally nobody there to do it right now. So from a true resource practicality standpoint, do you feel like some of the conversations you're having are not so much about the psychology of not wanting to do the bigger strategic, the uncertain work and then retreating to the weeds because it's the known thing. But just practically speaking, organizations are at a moment where they're not resourced or they're not willing to give the resources for the people who are most beneficial when they're working strategically to get out of the weeds and do that work so they feel like they have to do the work because there's literally nobody else to do it right now.

Karen Wright: [00:11:00] There's so much in that. So first up, uh, ruthless triage. Um, I've got a client who had this report on his to do list, and I asked him about it and he said, oh, I've got to get that done. I've got to get that done. And I said, how long has that been on your list? Well, eight months. And so I said, you know, if you haven't done it now, no one wants it. Take it away. And there are a whole lot of things that most organizations have always done that really don't need to be done. And so a quick way to find out whether something is necessary is just not do it for a while and see if anyone asks, you know, even if it's normal or, you know, whatever. That would be number one thing, number two thing, the quickest way to get resources for something is to have something important not get done. You know, to say, listen, we'd love to do this. We can do this and this, but not that, you know? And so for more senior level leaders, because really this is where this conversation has to happen, step up and say, we can do this and this, but not this.

Karen Wright: [00:11:49] And so make some choices. I think that one of the big problems that organizations at large have not yet confronted is the fact that prior to the pandemic, I think the expectations of organizations were bloated beyond the real capacity. And we had, you know, marathon workweeks and burnout and. All of this sort of thing. And since the pandemic, more people have sort of rightsized the role work plays in their life. And so the actual output capacity of a lot of organizations has reduced probably to something more close to reasonable. And I have yet to see very many CEOs or senior level leaders stand in front of their board and say, you know what? We actually are now going to ask the people to work at a reasonable level, and we can't deliver this. We're going to have to deliver that. And we could get into a big discussion about the role of the stock market and all of that. But but I do think that what we're seeing is a little bit of a correction now, based on the expectations, having been out of whack for a really long time. Yeah.

Jonathan Fields: [00:12:43] I feel like there's this, um, there's a pendulum. And on one side, when it swings all the way out, it's exploitation. On the other side, it's existentialism.

Karen Wright: [00:12:52] Nice.

Jonathan Fields: [00:12:53] And like we have been, like, probably swinging more towards the exploitation side for a while. Agreed. And that that became the new normal. So people just said, like this is kind of just what it is. There's really nothing I can do about it. The pandemic hits and all of a sudden people are like, this actually isn't okay, you know? And they swung it. They started swinging it back through center and back to like, no, the existing as a human being and flourishing side, that's really, really, really important. And that swung out pretty far to that side too, for a hot minute in comparison to how long it was on the other side, it was really a very, very short window. Agreed. And now it's I feel like we're seeing it kind of swing back, but it's still on on that side of let's acknowledge the importance of humanity. It's interesting. I just I know you saw this. I wrote a piece a couple of weeks ago on LinkedIn, basically, about what we can learn in leadership from Gen Z values that so many leaders have railed against for a while. And now it's become a cross generational set of values after the pandemic because everyone's like, oh, wait a minute, there's something to this having a life thing. Yes. And that it's not just about reskilling around domain expertise or practical skills, but it's recapturing that we need. And this is what you're describing. This is leaders having the fortitude to actually, you know, stand in the organization and say, we need to actually do some bigger reimagining than maybe we want to right now. But if we don't, the pain, the existential pain is no longer going to be to the individuals. It's going to be to the organization. And it was interesting because that that short article that I posted got a massive response.

Karen Wright: [00:14:35] It did, I know.

Jonathan Fields: [00:14:36] And most people were in support of it, but then there were a handful of people who were already like, yeah, like, no, this is stupid, you know, just go away. And it was very tempting for me to, to to respond in the comments with something like, you know, dinosaur meat asteroid. But I didn't, I didn't I was I was trying to be like open minded and get and I still am because I don't want to. I think it's important also not to demonize, like any point of view here and say like, you know, like we've all come up with a different set of assumptions through different seasons of, of organizational life. And there's there's going to be some pain across the board and readjusting. But I think there's a big.

Karen Wright: [00:15:13] System that a whole lot of people have a lot of attachment to. Yeah. Right. And so there are going to be people that are like, it's like the go back to the office thing, right? There's a whole lot of people. There's a big system, a lot of infrastructure in place that supports that and benefits from that. So, you know, I think we have to be mindful of none of this change, even though some of it feels like it wants to happen overnight. There's a huge system that just can't change that quickly. But I also think we need to be aware that there's two kinds of capacity shift that has happened. One is what you're talking about, which is sort of what I call a chosen capacity. But there's also a real capacity around mental health and burnout and the level of stress that people have had to absorb for the last few years. So I think that the the real available capacity has significantly shifted without even considering the existential questions.

Jonathan Fields: [00:16:03] Yeah, that's so true and such an important point. You know, I feel like there's there's like a chunk of bandwidth that exists in everybody's brains that is sort of like temporarily offline or it's reallocated to something else. Right? It's not necessarily offline, it's just been reallocated to something else. And if we don't acknowledge that, then we only end up deepening the problem. Yeah. Because I read something the other.

Karen Wright: [00:16:24] Day and I have to dig up where it was, but it was about the fact that the number one reason for leaders to fail these days would be lack of empathy. And I kind of hope that's true, because I want the leaders to who are succeeding, to be the ones who have empathy, who see the human aspect and who who value that and want to create in support of the human aspect of organizations.

Jonathan Fields: [00:16:47] Yeah, that's so interesting because so many the the educational culture around leadership for decades from top B-schools has been basically some version of kill or be killed totally. And now, you know, it'll be interesting to see if. Empathy starts to sneak into, you know what people are starting to be trained on as one. Even even if you still want to abide by the kill or be killed ethos. If you start to say to yourself, the way to actually make that happen is by being empathetic, oh my gosh, like it's a weird way to back your way into it. Yeah. Um, because you would love for like the, the bigger ethos to change itself as well. And I think it is in some places I hope so. But if empathy becomes viewed as a mechanism to, quote, win, you know, like what? What happens there? You know, like what does it because there's a little bit there's like a cultural tension there. Yeah. Um, if you're trying to actually like use it as that kind of lever.

Karen Wright: [00:17:48] Well, and again, getting back to that big machine that's been in place for so long has been based on a certain sort of culture and a set of values, and empathy has not necessarily been part of it. But there's actually a book that was written in conjunction with Harvard about the role of compassion in leadership that talked to, I think, 250 really senior corporate leaders about what the leader of the future needs to be. And and empathy and compassion are a big part of that.

Jonathan Fields: [00:18:14] Um, I love to see that. Yeah. So kind of getting back to, um, the where we started the idea of feeling like you're just spending all your time in the weeds and not wanting to, um, what are some of the ideas or strategies that you're talking about with people to try and, um, pull out of that?

Karen Wright: [00:18:37] I have a little my own little triage set of questions that I invite leaders to consider. And whenever they're about to touch something, I ask them to stop and say, must this be done? Must it be done at all by anyone? Which gets to that ruthless triaging of let's throw away the eight month old report. Right. So and then the question is, must I be the one to do it? Which means am I the only one who's got the unique skills and experiences required to get this thing done? And I don't care if you can do it quickest, and I don't care if you've done it more times than anybody else. I want to know if you're the only one in the organization, the only one in the system who actually can get it done. Because if there's anybody else who might be able to, that's where it should go. Yeah.

Jonathan Fields: [00:19:16] I mean, those are two simple but powerful questions. And it's interesting because they're straightforward questions. Nobody asks the right. But also the answer to them probably is it takes more work than you think, especially the second one. Like, must I be the one to do it? Yeah, because you've got to unpack, um, some ego attachment there as well, because like, you're not saying like, are you the best one to do it, you know, like you're saying, um, are you the only one who can do it? Really?

Karen Wright: [00:19:45] Um, well, and if you buy into the idea that a leader's job is to build capacity and capability, um, not necessarily to put points on the board or whatever the sayings are, but if your job as leader is to build capacity and capability, then you want to be looking for those times to teach, looking for those times to hand something off as a stretch.

Jonathan Fields: [00:20:05] Yeah. And this plays right into it also. Right. Because somebody who's in a leadership role, who feels like they're spending all their time in the weeds is probably going to say, well, I would love to be able to teach somebody else to do this, but I'm so busy doing it myself. I don't have the capacity to do it. What do you say to that person?

Karen Wright: [00:20:24] Um, I say, well, let's just I try a little science project, a little experiment. What's the thing that you know you've got next on your list? Who's who, who's around? Let's give it a try. It's sometimes you have to force an experiment. Force a little pilot project.

Jonathan Fields: [00:20:40] Yeah. Um. Or.

Karen Wright: [00:20:41] What are you getting out of it is another way at it, too, right? What are you what's what benefit are you getting because you're getting something out of doing it.

Speaker4: [00:20:48] Mhm.

Jonathan Fields: [00:20:49] Yeah. And that brings it back to the early part of our conversation, which is you're probably getting to spend more time in the known territory than the other unknown territory. And there's a there's a psychological.

Karen Wright: [00:20:59] Warm and comfortable weeds.

Jonathan Fields: [00:21:02] Yeah. So I mean, I'm curious now because I know you've shared that this aspect of this conversation are coming up quite often in the work that you're doing. Um, do you feel like there's a bigger conversation around this right now, or do you feel like people don't really want to acknowledge this outside of private conversations with trusted advisors?

Karen Wright: [00:21:19] I think it's more the latter at the moment. I mean, it's hard for me to say, though, because most of my conversations are just that the private, one on one trusted ones where people will admit to things that they might not want to admit in other circles. If I keep hearing it the way I've been hearing it. Just this week, we're on what, day three of being back. So you know, it's already a theme. And if the people on my team are telling me that they're starting to hear it, then we're going to make it a bigger conversation.

Speaker4: [00:21:41] Mhm.

Jonathan Fields: [00:21:42] Yeah. Because I think there would be a lot of value in making it more public because again, when we do that and this is part of what we're doing in this conversation right now in this podcast, is we're letting people who are feeling it know that they're not alone and that there's nothing you're not necessarily there may be some changes that would be advisable to make, but you're not this weirdo who's like out there on a ledge alone, experiencing this, um, that this is really common. And I would imagine it's really common at this particular moment in time as we're sort of like we're closing, you know, closing the books on, on a prior year and trying trying to launch ourselves and our organizations into the year to come in, especially in a year that feels like there are vast amounts of uncertainty on the horizon, and a lot of us are focusing more on, um, what do we do to batten the hatches, rather than what do we do to try and expand the pie? So as we close this conversation, final thoughts are surely an invitation to anyone who may be feeling this right now. What would you offer?

Karen Wright: [00:22:50] I'm always asking leaders to just think about their people and think about what will inspire their people and get the people excited. And to not assume that just because someone has never done something before, it doesn't mean that they're going to be scared of it, or bad at it or whatever. So to not retreat into the weeds, but to advance outward a little bit and look around and just see, you know, who you could send in there instead of you. Mm.

Jonathan Fields: [00:23:16] Love that. Be. Be a little bit brave. A little bit brave. In the name of helping both yourself, others and maybe like the entity at large.

Speaker4: [00:23:24] Maybe.

Jonathan Fields: [00:23:25] Yeah. Awesome. As always. Great to be deconstructing ideas like this. And to our fabulous listening audience. Thanks for tuning in. We'll see you here again next week. Take care. Hey, so I hope you enjoyed that conversation. Learned a little something about your own quest to come alive and work in life, and maybe feel a little bit less alone along this journey to find and do what sparks you. And remember, if you're at a moment of exploration, looking to find and do or even create work that makes you come more fully alive, that brings more meaning and purpose and joy into your life, take the time to discover your own personal Sparketype for free at sparketype.com. It'll open your eyes to a deeper understanding of yourself and open the door to possibility like never before. And hey, if you're finding value in these conversations, please just take an extra second right now to follow and rate SPARKED in your favorite podcast app. This is so helpful in helping others find the show and growing our community so that we can all come alive and work in life together. Until next time. I'm Jonathan Fields and this is SPARKED. This episode of SPARKED was produced by executive producers Lindsey Fox and Me, Jonathan Fields. Production and editing by Sarah Harney. On this episode.