How to Craft your Personal Productivity Approach

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Jonathan Fields: [00:00:10] So have you ever felt like you're just kind of going through the motions all day, day after day, constantly busy, but not really making progress on what truly matters most to you. Like, at the end of the day, you've checked all of these boxes, done a million things, but not much of what really mattered to you got done. And all the typical productivity advice that just feels, well, great for someone living in some utopian universe. But you're a real life person with all the things spinning around, and it just really doesn't work for you. Well, if that resonates at all, you are definitely not alone. Imagine if you could find a way to consistently operate at your highest level, accomplishing your most important things while feeling energized and motivated and incomplete. Alignment with your core values a path to get more of the right things done without sacrificing your well-being or your personal life in the process. Sounds like maybe a little bit of fiction, but it's real. And my guest today is Laura Mae Martin, the executive productivity advisor at Google, where she has spent 13 years coaching top executives on optimizing their time and energy. She sends out a wildly popular weekly productivity newsletter read by over 50,000 Google employees. And in her new book, uptime A Practical Guide to Personal Productivity and Wellbeing, she shares just this refreshingly balanced approach to achieving this while also living in the real world.

Jonathan Fields: [00:01:41] And what you're about to hear is a whole lot of myth busting practical insights and tips to integrate productive output with space for creative thinking and rejuvenation and family and complexity, and realigning your daily actions with your most meaningful intentions Tensions and actually owning the complicated, messy reality of your life. At the same time, this isn't about cramming more into each day through brute force. It's a far more suitable and sustainable path of working with your natural cycles, minimizing distractions, and using routines to create an integrated lifestyle where you show up feeling energized and purposeful across all areas of life. So get ready to take some notes, because this conversation is packed with immediately actionable wisdom to really help you operate at your highest level. So excited to share this conversation with you! I'm Jonathan Fields and this is SPARKED. Hey, and before we dive into today's episode, a quick share. So if you're a coach, a consultant or a leader and you would just love to stand out more in 2024 and beyond, with a powerful new credential and a set of results driven superpowers, we have got something for you. With nearly a million people now discovering their profiles, the Sparketypes have become a global phenomenon. People want their work to light them up, and oftentimes they would love some help along the way. Which is why we developed our certified Sparketype advisor training. As a certified advisor, you will discover cutting edge tools that spark profound work life client transformations.

Jonathan Fields: [00:03:20] Stand out with a highly unique credential and skill set in a crowded market. Find ease and flexibility with templated engagement flows. You'll become a part of a global network of change makers, and you'll rack up 40 ICF continuing education credits. Our fall cohort is enrolling now with visionaries just like you, and we would love to invite you to uplevel your capabilities as a coach or consultant or leader by becoming a certified Sparketype advisor. To learn more about the fall training and see if it's right for you, just click the link in the show notes now or visit sparketype.com. Slash pros Productivity has become. I feel like a buzzword. It has been a hot topic of conversation in business, in personal life. It's sort of like as the world seems to collapse into itself and like we feel like there's more and more and more piling on and piling on, piling on. People are like, how do we actually survive, you know, let alone. And then the next thing is, how do I thrive? Can I actually feel good in this world and a work life and a home life and a personal life that feels like it's just a bit calamitous, and there's certainly no shortage of takes on how to do that? Well. So I'm really curious from from your standpoint, what are we getting wrong about productivity these days?

Laura Mae Martin: [00:04:45] I think the big focus for a while has been on just how much can we churn out? How much can we produce? How much can we accomplish? And so I start the book by talking about one of the most productive days I've ever had, and it was a day when I watched television the whole day. And of course, that surprises people because that's not what we think of as productivity. But if my goal was to relax, enjoy a show that I wanted to catch up on, and I made the time for that and I did it well, then my intention matched my action. And that was in turn productive. And I'm probably going to produce more results on Monday from taking a day to fully relax. And so I think a lot of people ask me, well, how do you balance productivity and well-being? But the reason I think my book and my thoughts around it are different is that by being productive, you have more time for well-being, which makes you more productive. So it's not actually a balance, meaning that they're separate. They're on two sides of the scale that you're constantly teetering. It's really that by making that time to go on a run, you have better ideas that contribute to better performance, that give you more time to prioritize the run. And so you know, having that full circle holistic view is really important. And I think some people think of it as I really need to fit in. I really need to schedule in that wellbeing and try to make it two separate things.

Jonathan Fields: [00:06:06] Yeah. I mean, that's so interesting, right? Because it does seem like a lot of the talk around productivity is, is that wellbeing and getting things done? Are these two opposing forces? Exactly. And the thing that often suffers is wellbeing. Or if somebody prioritizes that they're like, well, I'm just not going to be as productive, you know, because I've got to take care of myself. It matters to me. Maybe something happens, so I'm okay sacrificing the productivity. And what you're saying is like, no, this is actually more of a yes end than an either or.

Laura Mae Martin: [00:06:33] Exactly. And I think we also think of ourselves as like work self and personal self, you know, in a similar fashion where we're trying to balance. But the point is, if you are functioning at this level and what I call uptime in this way of understanding, okay, I'm doing the right things at the right time, in the right way and making time for myself. Then you blend productivity and wellbeing, but you also are operating at your best personally and professionally. It's not, oh, I have to take away from one. It's just I'm in this zone where I know what me as one person, one pie of time, one set of priorities needs to do in order to feel good about what I'm accomplishing.

Jonathan Fields: [00:07:10] No, I mean, that resonates really a lot with me, and probably why I've struggled with a lot of the productivity pop culture that's been around for a long time. I feel like this exploration for you is also like, yes, you've been at Google for, I think, 13, 14 years at this point. You've been internal in different roles now in a coaching function. So there's a clear application there, but it feels like diving into the book and sort of like learning a bit more just about you and your life, that this is also really personal for you.

Laura Mae Martin: [00:07:36] Yes, exactly. I talk about a lot in the book and in my bio that I have three kids, one on the way actually, so four total, but five, three and one. And so a lot of people say, oh well, how are you productive? You also have all these things going on personally. And I talk about how again, because I have these strategies, whether it's theming my days at work and understanding this is going to be my administrative day, this is going to be my big picture thinking day. I'm also that way about meal planning dinner. We're going to do Meatless Monday. We're going to do new Recipe Tuesday, you know, so the tactics are the same. And I actually had to sharpen my time management and productivity. When you add all these additional responsibilities outside of work on because the time doesn't just show up anymore. If I want to have a nice morning routine with meditation and focus, that's only going to happen if I'm really intentional about it. And so I think it actually makes you more focused on I have to have these systems and their for both work and home, and I'm really in the weeds of both, which is what I try to get across in the book, because I think a lot of people are.

Jonathan Fields: [00:08:42] Yeah. And I want to dive into some of those, like the strategies, the tools, the systems. But before we get there, somebody might be listening to this and thinking, okay, so I would love to be more productive, but the idea of sort of like building a life of rules and systems and it feels so rigid, like so structured, almost brittle, you know, like I would rather fall off the productivity wagon and have the freedom to just live the way I want to live and be the way I want to be. What do you say to folks who sort of like, say that?

Laura Mae Martin: [00:09:14] Yeah, I didn't even really want the word productivity to be in the title, because I think people kind of hear that and they just think like, oh, you know, like, I don't have the time for that, or I don't want to deal with that because it's so much discipline and all these things. And so a lot of what I talk about in the book instead of rigid schedules is fluid routines. And so things where it's even like, hey, I'm not going to sit there and time block every single hour of my week and say, I do this here, and I do this here, because that's just unrealistic with how we work and how we live. And so instead could I just say, hey, I work my best in what I call power hours. I know I do my best focused work between 9 and 11. Could I just block that one two days a week? Could I try to make that just a scheduling change instead of every day I do this? Just Wednesdays 9 to 11 is my focus. Time to really dive into work that I need to do for the week, and so that one small change doesn't feel like an overhaul or like, you know, super rigid. It feels like, hey, I took control of this one block of time, and actually now I'm seeing a big difference in how much I get done.

Laura Mae Martin: [00:10:21] And now I might add Thursday if I can swing it with my schedule. So I try to give a lot of those what I call recipes, like the actual small things that you can do that feel good and feel easy and don't feel like this, you know, restricting, overhaul, rigidness but also leave room for, you know, what I'm going to do with that time. So one of the examples I talk about is I have a morning Laura 30. I call it before anyone wakes up. I just have 30 minutes to myself. So that in itself is rigid. But I don't plan what I'm going to do at that time. Sometimes I wake up and just sit there and drink coffee in silence, which with three young kids is a privilege of its own. Sometimes I'm reading a good book, and I read that. Sometimes I use that time to work out. Sometimes I meditate, sometimes I play piano, you know, whatever I'm in the mood for that day. So that's an example of having that structure, but still leaving room for spontaneity. What am I in the mood for right now?

Jonathan Fields: [00:11:20] Yeah, I love that you use the phrase fluid routines, which I was like, ooh, that actually feels better to me. Mhm.

Laura Mae Martin: [00:11:27] Yes. Less resistance. Right.

Jonathan Fields: [00:11:29] There's something there. But having the word fluid there, it's like okay. So that allows me to kind of like wiggle around a little bit and create a little bit of creativity in there and not feel like it's so boxed in, which I think is a lot of the resistance that people hear when they sort of like look at different strategies. Let's dive into a couple of these ideas, you know, and you start out actually by talking about something that I've heard different takes on, sort of identifying your top three priorities. Take me more into what you actually mean by top three priorities. And then the big question is like, how? How do we actually figure this out? Because if we've got like 1000 things coming at us and personal and professional all day, how do we even begin the process of figuring out like, what are the three things that matter most?

Laura Mae Martin: [00:12:10] Yeah, I think that's that's a great question, because when I do my coaching, I always start with that, and it gives me a good sense of how much has this person really sat down and thought through? These are the big things I care about. And, you know, the reason that there's three is because you can have a lot of things going on, and you can have a lot of things that you care about, but your time is only finite. And so by choosing three things, it's the rock star sand example where you have to place those big rocks in first and say, these are the things I really care about. These are the things I want to make time for, so that when there's other things that are more like pebbles and sand. So commitments come through your email and say, hey, would you like to join this project? You know, I'm really starting to think, well, that wasn't one of the top three priorities that I have right now. Instead of goals, priority indicates more of that present tense. Like, what are the things I'm focused on right now? And so it helps you define those things and say, you know what, I'd really like to have 4 or 5 big things, but realistically that's not possible. And so by having that definition of these are the top three things I care about and not top three personal and top three work.

Laura Mae Martin: [00:13:14] You know, top three. If I'm moving my family across the country, that just became a top three priority for the next three months, and that means something from work is maybe going to have to suffer. If I took on a new project at work, that's one of my biggest priorities. That means something else might get bumped. And so by having that trade off mindset, that's really the goal of choosing those top three priorities I talk about in the book. One time I was particularly overwhelmed, and my husband being kind of cheeky was like, well, what are your top three priorities? And I listed like six things. And, you know, that's the reason that I was feeling so overwhelmed is I thought that I could focus on six things at once. And just that one question really focused me. And you know what? I got a I got a table this for another time. It's not something I can handle right now. And you just start to whittle it down. So it's just that way of having a laser focus on these are the big things that matter for me. The other things will have space to fill in. But I have this lens now when things come my way. Is this something I said that I was focused on as one of my big, big rocks in my jar?

Jonathan Fields: [00:14:11] So you just gave a really interesting example as one of them. You're like, if you're moving your family across country, that's going to be a top three thing for the next three months. Which brings up the question of time horizon when we're talking about this, are we talking about a top three thing today, this week, this month, this quarter, this year? When we're making that decision.

Laura Mae Martin: [00:14:28] I find that typically every three months is a good time to evaluate. Of course, if something big comes up that's unexpected, you might want to reshift what if something now has become a top three priority? It's always a good time to reevaluate. But in general, I find that some of the top executives I've worked with who use this mentality are reevaluating those things on a quarterly basis. So, you know, every three months or so it's a good time to say, hey, they're actually still the same as they were, or now this is a good time to say no, this is no longer one of my top priorities. And that's why it's important to both define and communicate those things as they change, whether it's to a spouse, a manager, or to your team. Because the only thing people know is what they last heard you say you're focusing on. So if you as an executive have shifted your priorities, it's good to communicate that so people know, oh, now this person cares about this and I need to be focused like that when I ask them for things.

Jonathan Fields: [00:15:23] If we say, you know, let's figure out our top three for this quarter for the next three months, on a day to day basis, when you're sort of like figuring out, like, what do I actually do today? How do those top three guide us? Because other stuff is going to come like flooding towards us on any given day within that three month window or like, okay, I know this for this quarter, my top three priorities are, you know, like I want to train for a 10-K, I want to do this at work, and I want to be more present in this person's life on a day to day basis. When you're like, okay, so I said, these are my top three priorities. But now they're like nine other like people and things that want to fit into this day. How do we do that dance?

Laura Mae Martin: [00:16:03] Yes. Great question. You're like exactly falling down the funnel of how I talk about it in the book, because I don't like big picture productivity, things like choose your top priorities. So I keep drilling down. So you said train for a 10-K. The next question is what? How is that going to show its face on my calendar? How is that going to take from my time? So train for a 10-K seems broad run ten hours a week now is very specific. Now I have some data around what that looks like. Same for work goals. If I'm saying reorg my team this quarter, that's really big. So then I push people to say, well what does that look like? That may be a meeting with my HR person two times a week. Skip level meetings, interviews to understand what other teams are doing. You know, whatever that is. Really. Now we have a good grasp on how much time that should take up in your schedule, and then you can prioritize that way. And one thing I like to do is secretly print the calendar of someone I'm working with for the past three weeks, and then we actually take a highlighter to their calendar and say, hey, you said these were your three priorities. Let's put it to the test because your calendar doesn't lie. What have you been spending your time on? And that's a really eye opening exercise for the past to say, wow, all these things.

Laura Mae Martin: [00:17:18] You know, I'm in an all day off site for some small committee I'm on. That was a big chunk of time that was not on things I said I was prioritizing. And so that can be insightful when you're looking past, but looking forward, you now have in your mind. All right. I've got ten hours a week on this training. Now I have X on this priority, and it really starts to form up your calendar in a physical way, so that you do have an idea of the next chapter is how to say no. So the things that do come up, you know, how to make sure that you've set those boundaries for your priorities, and you feel more convicted to say, I actually do not have time for that. So I give, you know, five ways to say no, no, because no. But so lots of different actual sentences that you can copy and paste when people ask for your time. But you know that future you, which is a big concept I talk about in the book setting up Future You for having time to do those things and having time for those priorities. So taking care of future you. And that request comes in. As much as I want to say yes, I know Future me is going to be happy. I said no because I'll be able to focus more on those things I said I really care about.

Jonathan Fields: [00:18:24] Yeah, and I love that you get really granular with scripts around things like that, because I think that's one of the things people struggle with so much is saying no. And oftentimes we think, well, well, that's in a work context. You know, like my boss wants me to do this thing. I'm young in the company. How can I say no? But I think it actually comes up equally, if not more, with personal. You know that you're a part of a group or a club or a community member, you know, locally and you feel like, well, like this is where my personal devotion really is, and I don't want to let those people down. So it's not just a work thing, like saying no to personal things, to personal relationships, I think is probably maybe even harder.

Laura Mae Martin: [00:19:03] Definitely. Whether it's, you know, dinner at your mother in law's house every week or whatever that is. You know, I have that as an example as well. But I was a recovering say yes, or I had a really hard time saying no. I don't believe that no is a complete sentence. I feel like, especially in a personal sense, that starts to ruffle feathers and that can limit your social capital. If you're just the person who says no, period all the time. And so I really had to come up for myself ways that saying no felt good. So, you know, no, because with some vulnerability. And I think that to your point, I've used them both at work. But hey I can't join this book club as much as I want to because I know future me is not going to want to do that every other week. And so how do I still maintain friendships with those people without joining the book club? And I needed exact sentences for that. And I do talk about if you are young at a company and how to basically get your manager on board with saying no with you. So, hey, here are the five projects I have. Or here are the ten meetings a week. What would you cut if you were me so that I could prioritize the company's time? Well, and the time for people on your team. And every manager is going to appreciate that you're being thoughtful about that trade off and say no with you, which is a helpful option.

Jonathan Fields: [00:20:13] Yeah, I love that. I wish I had known some of this in a very, very past life. I was a young lawyer in a giant firm in New York City, and I was working for two different partners, completely different deals and stuff like this, and they didn't really communicate what they were doing with each other. I was young in the firm. I was trying to prove myself, and I was like, I don't have the ability to say no to either of these people, and I ended up working probably 100 hour weeks until everything fell apart, until basically my health ended up being completely destroyed, which I think is what happens so much. We're like, oh, we have to say yes, yes, yes, something's got to give somewhere, you know, like you can't actually it's not a sustainable thing. I love this sort of like the idea of like really thinking this through along the way rather than just saying yes, yes, yes and then imploding and then having to rebuild from the ground up. Which brings up the question, like, how do we really figure out, like there's so much mythology around, like this is the best time to do this type of thing. How do we figure out what's really best for us? Is it just a matter of running experiments?

Laura Mae Martin: [00:21:16] I think the main point is there is no one size fits all for anything. And so knowing that because it's so different, I do know writers that work the way you're talking and write first thing in the morning. But the first thing I ask people is if you had a full day of absolutely no interruptions or commitments tomorrow and you had to do these three types of tasks, when would you naturally slot them? And so that can give you some oh, you know I probably wouldn't work up, wake up first thing and read. You know I like to ease into my morning so that can just give you start to give you some structure. But the launch and iterate approach is by far the best. I actually use that myself. I thought for sure I would write better in the morning. I blocked all this time in the mornings to write. I felt in the wrong mood to write. Even after a few weeks I could tell that. And so I swapped just outlining in the morning and then writing in the afternoon, and just could immediately tell the results are better. So I think sticking with something because it's what you've always done or what you've heard people do, is never the way to really find the sweet spot. It's saying, I'm going to test couple one week this way, one week this way, and see and then, you know, go from there. And so I think that you have some starting points, which I'm not a morning person. I find myself wanting to do this at this time. That can be a good place. You can also just keep a little journal at your desk. And whenever you're feeling that, oh, I'm in the zone, I'm doing it. Write a little note. What were you doing? What time was it? What were the conditions? And you'll start to see even after a week or two. These are some of the patterns I can find about myself. And now I can ride out those patterns as much as I can.

Jonathan Fields: [00:22:50] Now, I love that. It's interesting that you sort of like said you experimented with that too. I often hike really early in the morning, and I try not to use tech while I'm out in the mountains, but I have found that I have an app where I can just speak into it and transcribe it, and then sends me the note afterwards that I'll be hiking and be like, ooh, the process of just being out in nature, like there's just some juicy ideas coming to me, and I just want to kind of capture them. They're not fully formed. So the morning for me tends to be really good idea capture time. But it's not idea. Sort of like fleshing out time. And developing time like that tends to be later in the afternoon. So even realizing that that didn't actually have to happen at the same time was kind of like this. Aha! For me, I'm like, oh, okay. This thing that people say all happens at the same time. Maybe not for me and that's okay.

Laura Mae Martin: [00:23:38] Yeah, I love that you're right on track because people say, oh, you wrote your whole book at your desk. I say, no, I wrote it on stroller walks.

Jonathan Fields: [00:23:46] Right?

Laura Mae Martin: [00:23:46] Because that is when my best ideas came. And that's why I do talk very heavily in the book about capture, because if you're not bridging that gap between I'm on a hike. Ps that was you prioritizing downtime and well-being, but still being at your most productive. So I'm on that hike, I'm on that run. I'm on a drive. I'm in the shower. Wherever you're coming up with these best ideas, it's not in your 10th meeting of the day and it's not knee deep in your email. So making that brain space. But then when the ideas come, having that surefire way that you can trust of getting them out of your brain into a place where then you can process them later on in what I call the closed part of the five CS. And that's the magic. That's the way that you get that full circle. I'm having ideas. I'm creating space for myself. I'm executing on the ideas. I'm coming up with more ideas. You know, it's that full loop of productivity.

Jonathan Fields: [00:24:39] Yeah, it's interesting because the more we're talking, also, the more I'm really understanding that phrase that you used earlier, fluid routines. It's really about making it about you and what you need and not necessarily, you know, some just generalized prescription because there is no universal thing that is appropriate for everybody. One of the things that tends to come up whenever you talk about ideas of, you know, like trying to get what you want done or the biggest priority thing is done is this notion of procrastination. And it's funny because I remember Adam Grant sharing a little while back some, some research on procrastination where it's like, not necessarily a bad thing, actually. So take me into your take on procrastination.

Laura Mae Martin: [00:25:20] I always talk about the first piece of procrastination is many times that energy piece. So if you find yourself scheduling early morning writing sessions and then not wanting to write during that time and continuing to push it off. You know, the first question should be like, is this the right time for me to do this task? So what is the perfect time for me to do this task? Am I trying to do it at that time? If not, that could be the biggest problem with why I'm procrastinating. And so that's usually the starting point. But then at the end of the day, there is going to be times where we just don't want to do something. And so one hack that I use and I teach, and I found really helpful, is separating out the doing of something with the preparing of it. And so our brains really like a prepared environment. It's the reason that we appreciate a charcuterie board so much. More than a couple of bags of cheese thrown around. You know, we like the presentation. And so if there's something that you've been meaning to do, so if you I call it acting like my assistant, say, if I had an assistant on this, what would I ask them to set up for me before I do it? And so I give the example in the book that I had this unpainted planter on my patio, and I just kept sitting out there every day thinking, I need to paint that.

Laura Mae Martin: [00:26:36] I mean, six months just kept doing it, thought about it every day because I'm that type of person who's going to notice it, but I just didn't know why I wasn't doing it. So I said, what would I ask an assistant to do? So one day I just got out the paint, just set out newspaper and a paintbrush and left it there. And that was it. The next day I came and sat down and said, oh yeah, I have ten minutes. Started painting it. So all it took for six months of putting that off was splitting it up into different tasks. And at work I do the same thing. I say, I don't have to make this presentation right now. I'm just going to open it and name it, because that's what I would ask my assistant to do. But then when I sit down at my desk with a fully named presentation already open, I'm way more likely to kick it into gear. So I think I give five or so little hacks, brain hacks like that, in order to say yes, this is something I need to do, but why does my brain keep putting it off. And what can I do to make it easier for me to get over that little hump of getting started?

Jonathan Fields: [00:27:36] But that brings up another issue. And this is something that you write about also, which is the notion of boundaries. You know, so when we're saying, okay, I want to define the time that I'm going to do this, I want to find the place that I want to do this, like I want all this stuff to be just the way that I want it. Right? And then then you realize, oh, but I also exist in a world with other people. Mhm. You know, at home, at work and all this other stuff. And I feel like it really does bring up this like the conversation around boundaries. So take me into that a bit.

Laura Mae Martin: [00:28:05] I think that when we talk about setting our priorities and then how to say no boundaries gets ahead of that a little bit, because having boundaries requires that we say no less often if we communicate boundaries widely. And so I like to talk about boundaries in the positive sense. So most people think of boundaries as this I don't do this, I don't do this. But instead of saying, I don't take meetings after five, I take meetings 8 to 5. You know, that changed people's brain to think, wow, look at all that she is doing. So, you know, if somebody says, hey, I'd love to meet with you 3 to 6 p.m., you know, you don't have to say, oh, I don't take meetings, then I use that. You just say, I use that time to write. Every day I take meetings between 8 and 3. So it just shifts people's way of thinking about what you do do. And I think by having those boundaries, it shows that you're really intentional about your time. It causes less requests to come in, because a lot of times people they don't know, they don't know when you write, when you work, when you take meetings, what you prefer. And so it gets rid of some of that ambiguity.

Laura Mae Martin: [00:29:07] Again, even with kids, you know, we don't say there's no screen time on the weekdays. We say we do movie nights on the weekends. And that's the only thing my kids brains go to. And so if you have those boundaries, it just makes a lot less back and forth. And it also says for you, okay, these are the things that I care about that set future me up to get more done. And, you know, again, it's not super rigid. You know, I like to even an 80 over 20, 80% of the time you're keeping the boundary. That's still going to establish it. But I talk about it in the book, running into a co-worker that was a close friend and a colleague, and he said, oh, I've been really wanting to schedule a meeting with you, but I knew you'd decline if I didn't add an agenda. So, you know, that's a boundary I've set, and I'm fine with it. You know, it probably has saved me a lot of time over the years that people know that I'm not going to accept a meeting unless I see an agenda. And so small things like that can add up over time to really protect what you care about.

Jonathan Fields: [00:30:05] Yeah, I mean, that makes a lot of sense to me. And still, I love the idea of just this simple change in the way that you're framing it instead of like, this is the thing that's not okay. It's sort of like, this is the thing that is okay, and here's one. And then it's sort of like the assumption is just, oh, if it doesn't happen within, like this approved window that that's not okay, but you're stating it in the positive. So it kind of feels like that would change the tone of the conversation of the interaction rather than, oh, this person is pushing me away or saying no to me. It's like, no, they're telling me when it's a yes. So like, cool. I'll just make sure that I sort of like step into the yes zone. Exactly. And still they're going to be folks that you feel you can't really enforce those boundaries with, you know, certainly certain family members or that, you know, just when I described earlier, I was a young associate at a law firm and two senior partners, like, here's work, here's work, here's work, I need it now, I need it. Yesterday, I didn't feel like I had the ability, which I guess circles us back to the early conversation around like saying no.

Laura Mae Martin: [00:31:13] And maybe it was like getting those two partners in a room and saying, hey, here's all the things I'm being requested. You know, I think what you learn, which you learned, is it's a long game. You know, you can have no boundaries or you can let people push those boundaries, or you can say yes to too much, but it will explode eventually. And I think when you also are saying yes to too much, you're not doing your best work. And so if you are communicating that in some instances you can get buy in from, from managers and things like that, in some instances it's not a good environment for you, in which case that will flush itself out and you'll realize that. But I think that the problem is, again, with the three priorities, I'll ask people, what are your top three priorities? Or I ask, what are some boundaries you have? And they're not defined. And so I think the first way of understanding, how can you ask other people to respect boundaries that you haven't yet defined and communicated for yourself? And so I think that's again, part of the exercise is just saying, when do I want to stop taking meetings at night? Do I want to be accessible over the weekend via email? When do I want to be available for this and this, and do I want to go to dinner at my mother in law's every other Friday? Or, you know, having really thought through that is the first step so that you feel better about saying no. I think that's a big part of it, is when you have a boundary, it feels a lot easier to say no than having to decide every time, is this something I want to do?

Jonathan Fields: [00:32:40] Do you feel like the popularization of remote and hybrid work over the last 4 or 5 years has made this more interesting? Because, you know, it's sort of like when everyone's not showing up in the office at the same basic set of hours, and people are distributed around the world now working all different times, and a lot of it is remote. I sometimes wonder the fact of hybrid or remote work ends up really graying, what boundaries are, and also what people think they're allowed to do when it comes to boundaries.

Laura Mae Martin: [00:33:14] Yes, that's a great point. I think at first it was everyone working from home, which then turned into living at work, you know. Which then turned into how do I then redefine some of these things for myself? So it certainly sharpened the conversation around what our boundaries. Why are they important? You know, I talk about my dad work from home since 1995. He was an original work from home person, and I never once saw him working outside his office. He always had this boundary where he never brought his computer into the living room or at dinner or anything like that. And I asked him, how did you set that? You know, how would you say, I'm available at this time? And he said, well, it's because I only had Ethernet at first, so I really couldn't work anywhere. And that was the boundary was kind of set because of that. And so I think in some ways we have to adopt that mindset. You know, we have to say shut the door. We're closing the time where we're working. And for some that's actually giving your phone a bedtime. I talk about giving my kids a bedtime, giving my phone a bedtime, giving it its own bedroom, putting it in there and saying, hey, I'm signed off at this time, communicating that if you need to get in touch with me, you know this is how. But actually thinking through that is now important, whereas it wasn't before. And so it's just causing us to have to flex a new muscle on what do we want our boundary to be, because otherwise it just bleeds. Like you said, it just becomes I'm working all the time. I'm always available. It's way more intention required now I think.

Jonathan Fields: [00:34:43] Mm. No, that makes a lot of sense. And I think we're just all still navigating that and trying to figure it out. And we can't talk about all of this also without also talking about the idea of distraction. You know, I think so many of us feel like we are like the device that is in our pocket at any given moment in time. Sometimes multiple devices keeps us perpetually tethered. But that device is not just about connection and productivity and getting things done and making your calls. It's also we have these apps on there that are these, you know, like nuclear bombs of distraction. But it's also it's everything all around us. So like for me, when I was saying earlier, I go to a cafe to write and I like the noise and the people and stuff like that. I'm not interacting with them, you know? For some reason, my brain actually views what somebody else would view as like, oh, this is like massive distraction centre. I could never work here. And my brain's like, no, like, this is actually exactly what I need. So talk to me about the idea of distractions and also the sort of like the subjectivity of distraction.

Laura Mae Martin: [00:35:41] I think that people say, okay, you've told me to set my priorities. You've told me to set the right day to work on them. You told me to set the time, the right location. Here I am. I've blocked 9 to 1030 to work on something, and now it's 905. And I quickly just have to answer this text. And now it's 910. I've got to wrap up email. I have one tab open. I'm just going to finish that now. It's 940. I get into it a little bit, but someone calls and now it's, you know, now it's 1015. I've barely done anything. It's not worth getting started. So a lot of people feel like time is the problem. We don't have enough time. We don't. We need more time. But what happens is the distraction eats away at the time we do set. And so being really again intentional about the time that we've set aside to do things can shift what used to take an hour and a half or more to take 20 minutes. And so I talk about child proofing yourself again, taking that little more of a a distant view and saying, okay, I've set 3 to 6 to write you. At 245, you're in the coffee shop and you think, What is Jonathan going to get into? What could distract him right now? Oh, I see he has email open.

Laura Mae Martin: [00:36:50] His phone's out. Out of his bag. You know, he's going to need to get a snack. So what can I do before that time starts? In order to get rid of that option, minimize all the tabs you know, close this out. Put the phone in the bag, turn it on silent so that when that time block starts, you're almost bored into focus. It's kind of panicky for our brains, because we're used to that video game mentality where there's always something to check, always something to do, which gives us way more of a dopamine hit than staring at a blank page trying to write. And so by practicing that, it gets easier and easier and we are able to drop into a focus, but it doesn't happen naturally. So same thing with our phones. You know, we you might need your phone on your hike to capture those ideas, but how do you make sure that you're also not seeing pop ups from new emails that could be later on? So I'm really specific about what apps can be opened at what time, what notifications come through.

Laura Mae Martin: [00:37:45] You know, I tell people I'm so serious about Monotasking that I don't even use my phone if I'm watching TV. I think if I'm not paying attention to what I'm watching, there's no point in watching it. I'm not going to enjoy this fully if I'm also on my phone. So I'll either spend time on my phone and then cut it off, or I'll watch TV and then put my phone away. And so thinking, actually, what can I do to make sure that I'm not getting those distractions? It unfortunately requires a lot of thought, a lot of intention. And then you know, to your point, I think there's a difference between what helps my brain work best. So for me, that's film music and listening to music, while for you that's the noise of a coffee shop. For some people, if that music is playing in the background for them, they'd say, oh gosh, that is really bothering me. So I would think of it more as what's a distraction versus what helps me get in the zone. And it's easy to tell the difference, usually by how it makes you feel and produce results.

Jonathan Fields: [00:38:39] Yeah, I think tuning into how something makes you feel is is so important, and often we don't tune into that regardless of the situation. We're just sort of like living from our head rather than living from sort of like our felt sense. I want to circle back a little bit. Also, you know, earlier we were talking about this idea of routines and fluid routines. You introduced this concept you call when then routines also, which I thought was really interesting.

Laura Mae Martin: [00:39:06] Yeah. That's just again, I think I don't like the word habits because it raises that same sense of, oh, that productivity does. Just like another thing, I have to do a habit. And so the when then is just, hey, I'm already doing this. Let me associate this with it. So I really want to do daily affirmations. You know, instead of trying to make that a habit and fit it in, why don't I just say, hey, every day while I'm brushing my teeth? I could do that because I know I'm going to brush my teeth. So I'm going to associate these two things together. Or any time that maybe I say, oh, I really want to put my phone away at night. Maybe it's, hey, when I walk out of the room putting my kid to bed, I walk right to put my phone away because that's something I know I'm going to do. So it's just constant association of when. Then it's just more of a routine than a habit. And I think by associating two things, one, that you know you're going to do, it just makes it more natural. Because the problem is people say, all the time I've been meaning to this, I've been meaning to this. Okay. When were you planning to do that? So by giving it a when spot, you actually solidify that it's going to happen in your schedule. You solidify a trigger that at least makes you think I should put my phone away now. Because I just walked out of my daughter's room. That's a that's an association. And so you can use that to remember things. You can use that to, you know, where should I put this? When I think of where's the tape? I think of this spot. Now that's where I can put the tape. So I talk about it in the book a lot of ways to just use your brain and that hack to both get things done and some other small wins.

Jonathan Fields: [00:40:35] Yeah, I like that it gets tied to something also that happens on a recurring basis. So it's like I'm going to brush my teeth every day. So this is the thing that triggers the the action that comes after it. Speaking of action, I think that kind of brings us all the way back around earlier when we just started talking. Um, you were certainly describing, I think you used the phrase aligning your intention with your action, and the name of your book is uptime. And I feel like this is sort of like the core idea here. Like underlying all of this stuff is, am I actually showing up and acting in a way that is aligned with what I intend. How do we get a little bit more certain that we can do that, or all these ideas really just all leading towards that at the end of the day?

Laura Mae Martin: [00:41:21] The reason I chose the word uptime is, you know, when we are in, however infrequent we might feel, that zone where we think, wow, I am killing it. I'm feeling good personally. I'm doing, you know, professionally. I'm making time for myself. I'm having good ideas. I'm executing. It's kind of that super on top of it feeling. And that's what I define as uptime. And so all of the tactics in the book are how to achieve that. But they're all small changes. So nothing is an overhaul. They're all little hacks, small things. And you know, I talk about in the book, it could be read like a menu if you don't struggle with too many meetings, if you don't struggle with procrastination, those chapters aren't for you. If your brain picks up on a few things in a few chapters, that's probably what you're struggling with, and a few small changes there can make a big overall difference. And so to your point, I think trying to understand what is productivity mean. You know, how do I tell if I'm productive? The real question is, do I feel good? Am I doing my best? Am I operating at a level that is sustainable? So at the law firm for you, the answer would have been no. And so how do you get to that point before you know everything goes wrong and you feel like you need a giant overhaul? What are the small, simple things that you can do in order to say, are my intentions matching my actions, and am I producing my best work in the best way? Feeling my best personally and professionally?

Jonathan Fields: [00:42:46] Now that lands well. It feels like a good place for us to come full circle as well. So thank you. Hey! So I hope you enjoyed that conversation. Learned a little something about your own quest to come alive and work in life, and maybe feel a little bit less alone along this journey to find and do what sparks you. And remember, if you're at a moment of exploration, looking to find and do or even create work that makes you come more fully alive, that brings more meaning and purpose and joy into your life. Take the time to discover your own personal Sparketype for free at sparketype.com. It will open your eyes to a deeper understanding of yourself and open the door to possibility like never before. And hey, if you're finding value in these conversations, please just take an extra second right now to follow and rate SPARKED in your favorite podcast app. This is so helpful in helping others find the show and growing our community so that we can all come alive and work in life together. This episode of SPARKED was produced by executive producers Lindsey Fox and Me, Jonathan Fields. Production and editing by Sarah Harney. Special thanks to Shelley Adelle for her research on this episode. Until next time. I'm Jonathan Fields and this is SPARKED.