How to Navigate Change With Ease (Part 2)

Jonathan Fields (00:00:12) - So change is in the air and it's making many of us recoil. But why? And what can we do to change how we respond to change, to turn it from something we fear into, something we embrace, maybe even seek out because the other side holds so much potential and possibility. Once we've learned how to move through it with so much more grace and ease, That's the conversation we began in last week's Part one of this powerful conversation about change with the author of Flux and Change strategist April Rinne. So if you haven't listened to Part one last week, go back and listen. It's a critical setup for today's Jam. We explored a different way to approach the change that we don't invite or want, which April calls Flux. Then April shared a number of her eight Flux superpowers. And today we're bringing the conversation home as we dive into the remaining superpowers so you can feel amazingly well-equipped to handle almost any kind of change that comes your way and work in life. Okay, Now it's time to drop back into our flux.

Jonathan Fields (00:01:17) - Toolbox. Cannot wait to share some of these superpowers with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is sparked. Hey, before we dive into today's show, you know, we've learned that a lot of our listeners are sort of at this moment where they're really exploring the notion of work in their lives and their next moves in their careers. And if you are in that place, we talk about the spark and the spark of types a lot on this show, this body of work that we've developed to help you really identify what makes you come alive and how to apply that to the world of work. We've heard from a lot of folks that they would also love some help along that journey. If you're curious, you can also find on our website a directory of Certified Sparketype Advisors who know this body of work and can really help coach and guide you through it. So we'll drop a link to the show notes in that right now. And if it feels interesting to you and you just like somebody to help guide you through this next part of your career or work journey, take a look and see if somebody resonates.

Jonathan Fields (00:02:19) - It might be the perfect fit to help you along this next leg of your journey. Again, that link is in the show notes now. So trust. It's so central to all of this. I do want to touch on some of the other principles and superpowers that you share around navigating change. The very first one that you actually introduced in your book, I thought was interesting because it's also to a certain extent, counterintuitive, which is the notion of running slower when most people see this uninvited change coming their way. Oftentimes the reaction is, let me get through this as fast as humanly possible. And you're inviting us to actually maybe flip that script.

April Rinne (00:02:59) - I love the flipping, the script. And each of the superpowers, just as a general matter, is counterintuitive in some way. And I think I always like to just mention that and say what I mean by that is it runs against a lot of the scripts that society have put out for us around metrics of success and what matters and what to do.

April Rinne (00:03:15) - And the reason for that is because a lot of the scripts by which we're living our lives and individually, collectively today are premised in an assumption that we can control what happens, that we live in a world where humans are the dominant species, etcetera, etcetera. And we have some say over what happens more and more. That's becoming increasingly clear that that's not the case. That never has been the case. And so what that means is we need to rethink these societal scripts. And so back to run slower, which I think of as a symbol of our pace of change. What I'm really getting at is when you think about the pace at which you live and work and how your speed affects what you see and how you react and how you respond. In a world that is insta everything 24 over seven. I mean, that's kind of the world we live in and faster is better and speed. I'm not saying that speed is bad, just to be clear, and I'm not saying that it doesn't make sense to run in an emergency.

April Rinne (00:04:12) - I'm not saying it doesn't make sense to sprint towards something you care about. The challenge we face as society is that sprinting or emergency pace has become the norm and everyone is not just frazzled and burnt out and tired and exhausted and anxious and all the rest. The bigger problem, or equally large problem is that when we're constantly running fast, going, moving, moving, moving, just trying to get to the next thing, that compromises our ability to make good decisions, that compromises our ability to see the full picture, that compromises our ability to actually be our best selves in any way, shape or form. And so the run slower, the way it's phrased is in an ever faster-paced world that 24 over seven world, your key to success and well-being and satisfaction is to learn how to slow your own pace. And when I say slow, I don't mean stop. I don't mean be lazy. I don't mean give up. I mean learning to run. I do use the verb run, but at a pace that is sustainable, that allows you to see and get clarity and understand what's really happening and and what is the right thing to do in that moment.

April Rinne (00:05:18) - So that's where I'm it is counterintuitive, but it's if we just keep running faster, faster, faster, faster, faster. Any system that does that, not only does it ultimately lead to collapse, it's also a trigger of fear. And that's a whole other angle. But like fear creeps in when we're running fast physiologically. And so all of this ends up we end up sort of twisted up like pretzels. And what I'm trying to do is unpack that to help us actually be much better positioned for whatever changes come our way.

Jonathan Fields (00:05:46) - Yeah, that that makes so much sense. It's like bring it down a notch as you're describing this, literally having a little bit of a flashback in a very past life. I was a lawyer and I think, you know, I know, I know. And I was in practice in a large firm in Manhattan and I found myself working in a tower where I was There were two different elevator banks and I was working on high up on one and the senior partner was working with was in the other.

Jonathan Fields (00:06:14) - So and this person was very old school, didn't turn on the computer, didn't know how to. This was many years ago. So to communicate with them, every time I had to communicate, I would have to go from my office, take the elevator down to the lobby, cross over to a different elevator and go back up. And I found myself like, we're on a deal doing this massive, massive public offering. And, you know, like just tons and tons of work, like never going home. And and I'm madly running down to the lobby and back up and crossing elevator banks all day, every day. And I'm trying to go faster and faster and faster because the deadline is getting closer and closer and closer. And just like at some point along the way, it dawned on me that I just I was making more and more mistakes and that the net effect of that of me trying to go faster was that it was requiring me to actually make more of those trips because I was having to correct all the mistakes that I was making.

Jonathan Fields (00:07:07) - And had I just dialed it back a touch, like not like, you know, I wasn't sprinting, but it also wasn't slacking. I was still moving with intention, but just a touch that maybe the ratio of errors would drop enough because I wasn't just hyperventilating 24 over seven, that it would then also allow me to not have to go back and forth and back and forth and back and forth, and it would be much more humane and also deliver a much better word product. And that's exactly what I did. And it worked. And it was such kind of a silly but like it was so powerful that this was like 30 years ago. And I still remember that experience.

April Rinne (00:07:43) - Oh, thank you, Jonathan. This is a fabulous example and it's spot on. And I'm so glad you shared it. And to expand a little bit on some of the workplace dynamics, but also organizational dynamics, Probably my favorite example of an organization that gets this is actually the Navy SEALs, the Navy SEALs. Their mantra, slow is smooth and smooth is fast, Right? They figured out that it's when you're running fast, when you're racing, that you make foolish mistakes.

April Rinne (00:08:14) - You drop something, you bumped into something, you forget something. Right. And what happens, Right? Your adrenaline goes up, you lose your cool, you get anxious, all of that. And I love that you bring up not just the the law firm setting, which I have much empathy for, particularly separate conversation, billable hour, not so helpful for this kind of thing either, let's just say. But more broadly on any organization, right? You've got people who have 1000 things on their to do list and they're racing to do them. All right. And the problem we face when you wake up in the morning and you're like, I've got a thousand things and by the end you might have done 20 of them and you have 30 more things on the list or whatever, right? But like overwhelm the challenge is that when we're just when our mindset and our mojo is to just react and race fast and do as much as you can to get as many of these things done as you can, not only do you make more mistakes, but you also and in some ways more profoundly, you fail to realize that if you actually paused for a moment, took a look at what was on that to do list, you would realize that I don't know the number ten, 20, 50, maybe 100 of those 1000 things actually needs to be done or couldn't be delegated or couldn't wait for a later time, you know, So like these things compound as well.

April Rinne (00:09:30) - And so in workplaces, that notion and I hear this from teams all the time that when a team is able to do this together, it's like the whole thing just starts. It's like a whole bunch of sand gets out of the wheels and everyone. Because what happens is when you make particularly foolish mistakes, that's not just time and energy for you. That's time and energy for your colleagues. It's time and energy for the organization. It just kind of compounds. And so take a beat, step back. But again, develop this as a practice in your daily routine, in your weekly routine as a team. Families can do this as well. I mean, it's it's a nice it's a nice practice to have and to keep.

Jonathan Fields (00:10:10) - And it just makes life more livable. Also, like just on a human level, you know, and just lets you you can breathe a little bit more easily along the way. And it's interesting also because this as everything that we're talking about, like one feeds into the next and into the next, like one of the other principles is the notion of seeing what's invisible.

Jonathan Fields (00:10:28) - Really hard to see what's invisible when you're moving at the speed of light.

April Rinne (00:10:32) - Bingo. Oh, and what's lovely is those too often they like, run in tandem, run slower, and you start to see and often use the analogy or the example of what do you see when you're driving your car, you know, 80 miles an hour down the road? What do you see when you ride your bicycle down that very same road? And what do you see when you walk down that very same road, same road, same stretch of land you're passing through, but your ability to see and to notice what I love is things we notice when we're walking the details, you know, and including you can't greet somebody. You can't say hello to somebody. You can't form relationships when you're always running fast, right? Yeah.

Jonathan Fields (00:11:09) - So on the see what's invisible idea. What do you mean? When we're talking about invisible.

April Rinne (00:11:14) - Oh, and this gets very interesting very fast in terms of depending on the context within which I'm working.

April Rinne (00:11:21) - See, what's invisible can mean many different things in terms of seeing what we've been missing most recently. This is coming up a lot with regards to diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging issues. Who's at the table? We can see who's at the table. We often don't see who's not at the table. If we actually saw who was not at the table and either brought them to the table or created a different table, we would get not just better solutions and outcomes. I'm looking at this through the lens of how do we navigate the unknown. We would get more wisdom and more kinds of perspective to answer the question, what do you do when you don't know what to do? So that's one. We can look at this often. Not to go back to the law, but you and I spent many years doing different things in that world, and I spent a lot of time looking at public policy and how we had designed and written different rules and rules are written to benefit some people, the people we see, and to not benefit other people or stakeholders whom we don't see.

April Rinne (00:12:18) - And so again, see what's invisible. I always have to be very careful when I say invisible, I do not mean we don't see it. If you're looking closely, it's glaringly clear who is and who isn't there. Who who doesn't. Doesn't matter who is and isn't counted. Cetera. But when we're constantly running fast and the ability to navigate change when change hits, if you're only seeing and I like to say, like every person in every culture and it's not unique to any particular culture, every culture, we are taught to see some things and not see others. And when change hits, it's what we can't see that often gets us in trouble and often keeps us from actually developing a better solution, a better way forward. So I know that sounds a bit I don't mean for that to sound vague. There are lots of tangible examples, but depending on who I'm working with and how, and obviously in family situations, personal situations, there's a lot of the unwritten rules at home. There's a lot of the unscripted, the dynamics, the things we started to do by default, but not because it was healthy for the relationship.

April Rinne (00:13:22) - You know, those sorts of things are also the invisible. And so how do we learn to learn to surface those invisible things, turn them into possibility to your point, but also recognize them as tools that actually help us navigate change?

Jonathan Fields (00:13:37) - Yeah, I so agree with this. You know, I often think to myself that subtext matters more than what's surface, you know, because it's like so much of communication happens in level subtext or lack of communication, and often it's the most important things. But like nobody's actually surfacing them and saying, can we actually talk about this? And yet they're at the table with everybody else. You know, it's just there being, you know, and talking about invisible. They're known, but but intentionally being treated as being invisible and not by everyone. Sometimes some people realize them, some people see it, some people don't. And some people, I think, step into moments of uncertainty, of change. Having developed this skill of seeing the invisible and then trying to then also leverage that as to create an advantage within the context of that particular situation.

Jonathan Fields (00:14:30) - So the notion of like, can we all actually sit, sit in a conversation together, be in this moment together and talk about all the stuff that nobody is talking about and bring it to the surface? I feel like it almost not only helps you navigate change, it also helps bring more equity to the process of change.

April Rinne (00:14:48) - Absolutely. Absolutely. And to do so, when I say responsibly, that sense of when you say taking advantage, like we can take advantage in a really positive way, occasionally, rarely. But it does happen. You see people trying to take advantage of that, you know, like like a sort of I see something you don't see, right? But my spirit and what I see on the whole back to the trust piece, like, yes, you will have instances of that happening. That is the exception, not the rule. The rule is that this is absolutely collective betterment. And I just want to build on one thing you were talking about, too, because in the in the setting of of teams and talent, another example, again, it bleeds into another superpower.

April Rinne (00:15:23) - We don't need to go there. But what's on your resume and what's not on it and what are the skills that actually help you thrive and succeed at work? And you think of these these we talk a lot about the people who have the people who are just magnets. You want to work with them. They may or may not have the credentials. They may or may not be, you know, the most powerful or the best dressed, but they're like awesome people. And you look at their resume and what I love is like, we are so much more than our resume, and yet we hire based on this piece of paper or this LinkedIn profile, which has some interesting facts on it, but it doesn't contain the invisible skills, the invisible talents that each of us have. And how do we and this I spend time in another chapter looking at how do we actually unearth those skills so that we actually can have more flourishing careers as well. And organizations can do a better job of talent, engagement and whatnot.

April Rinne (00:16:15) - But I love that angle also because even that ability to see is one of those. The irony, the ability to see what's invisible is actually an invisible skill itself, but that is actually a superpower and something that we all need to train ourselves to be better at doing.

Jonathan Fields (00:16:30) - And I think it's such a huge superpower also. But you tease this other superpower in this. So let's take us there.

April Rinne (00:16:38) - Yeah, sorry about that. And I'll we can keep this one brief, but it's fun because it certainly relates to the world of organizations and, you know, talent, attraction, engagement, all the rest and our own individual professional lives. And this one is related. It's unique amongst the eight because it is the most, I would say, practical, tangible like and it's related to the future of work, which is in flux. Right? Lots of lots of uncertainty everywhere. The running joke being like more is what's not in flux is sort of I'm looking for those examples so much is very little isn't but that the world of work, not just organizations and how they're thinking about the future of AI and all the rest, but individuals saying how do I want to have a what does it look like? How do I design a career that is meaningful and flexible and what I like to call flux, Right.

April Rinne (00:17:23) - It has the ability to weather change. Well, and one of the things that I've been working on for quite some time, more than 20 years, but it really is gaining momentum in the last 5 to 10 is the notion of how we see and shape our careers and the the career shape of the future. And if you think about historically, most people look at their career as either a ladder you're going to climb or a path, a linear path you're going to pursue to ever higher plateaus. Those are fine shapes of one's career. Nothing wrong with them per se, but they come from the first industrial revolution. They come from a time of, you know, manufacturing at scale. And the first time we could do these things 250 years ago, wildly outdated for the world that we live in today, in which it is a world that where there have never been more ways to build a meaningful career, earn income, contribute to society than now. And yet we're still stuck in this like, ladder career, ladder box.

April Rinne (00:18:18) - And so the superpower, it's the difference between a career ladder or a career path and what I call a career portfolio. And shifting from seeing your career, the shape of your career as a ladder, you're going to climb and rethinking it as a portfolio, or you're going to curate like an artist wood or an investor. Wood Lots of different kinds of portfolios, but it's a much more holistic view of who you are, what you can do and how you can have a professional life of meaning and success. And what's lovely is that this notion I mean, the moment I started writing and talking about it, it's very popular amongst individuals. It's like you're speaking my language. This is what I wanted, not just for me, selfishly, but I look at the world of work and I don't see I don't know what my future looks like. I see organizations automating things. I see organizations downsizing, I see disruption. How do I navigate this? Individuals like it. The piece I also want to tease out here is that this is actually smart for organizations as well, for how you see talent and how you cultivate new avenues for leadership and internal mobility and see your talent more fully as humans, not just as what's on the resume.

Jonathan Fields (00:19:30) - Yeah, that makes so much more sense to me. And I feel like whether individuals and organizations want to be brought to this conversation, they are being brought to it because it's just a reflection of the state of things like right now. And you know, there's no going backwards here. Like there's we're only going deeper into flux. And it's and it's a healthy approach to it.

April Rinne (00:19:54) - And one, one plug I'll put in just the healthy approach and you can think about it strategically of like, how do I look at the different things I can do and how I combine different skills and what's my narrative and all of that. Going back to the human piece, in this world of work, there's just so little that people feel they have any agency or control over. And again, whether they're a. You're just starting out or whether they're, you know, mid-level manager or even an executive. Like there's just so much I just don't know. I want to do the right thing. And what I love is that unlike a unlike a job that, you know, even if you're really good at it, even if you love it, a job that someone else gives you can always be taken away.

April Rinne (00:20:33) - It's just a fact of life. No one can take your portfolio away from you. It is yours forever. You're responsible for it, but no one can take it away. And at the human level, at a very fundamental psychological level, the sense of peace and comfort that can come with that is really helpful as well.

Jonathan Fields (00:20:53) - Yeah, completely agree. And since you brought up the word human, that also kind of meanders us into one of the other ideas here, which is to be all the more human and serve other humans like this is sort of in a different context. But a lot of I think our conversation keeps reflecting back to this notion of like, how do we actually humanize the experience of change, whether it's in the context of work and of personal life, of health, of relationships. And it also reflects back to the very early part of our conversation around individualism and collectivism. And with that second part of your invitation and serve other humans, tease us out just a bit more in terms of like how this is critical in the context of us better navigating change.

April Rinne (00:21:36) - Yeah, well, and it's interesting because it also has trust, right at the core. Yeah, for sure. So it's interesting is this superpower, I'll give you the very basic explanation of how it began, because then you might imagine it has actually blossomed. And and I hear from people quite often around like, I read this and it meant this to me and I applied it in this way. And I'm like, That's awesome. That is not how I like, like you've made this your own, which is wonderful. It's what I hope for. But I've realized that this this superpower in particular, people interpret it in very personal ways, how it was intended originally, which I do think applies to most humans. Most people on the planet in some way, shape or form was really around the contrast and the tension we feel between our relationship to other humans and our relationship to technology and the fact that we are spending ever more time on our devices and yet ever less time with one another. And how this plays out in our ability to navigate change and uncertainty is that and again, generalizing, caveat, we're often led to believe and again, consciously, subconsciously change hits.

April Rinne (00:22:40) - You have a problem, pull out the app, it's going to fix the problem, pull out the change hits. Oh my, my, my device will take care of it. And the more the more access I have to different devices, tools, hacks, whatever, the better equipped I am to navigate change. And when we're talking about change like traffic, like there's a change in the traffic. Okay, pull up my app and I'll get there more quickly. That's. That's legit. I'll give you that. But when this capital sea change hits, what you find is that the more reliant we are on technology, the harder time we have navigating the kinds of change that ultimately are are the human experience of change. And so this idea of being all the more human when it comes to navigating change, be very careful about your relationship to change back to control this notion that I can outsource my control to technology, right? And then change hits and you realize that those tools only get you so far.

April Rinne (00:23:39) - And I'm not saying they're not helpful on a very practical transactional level, but we need to actually rely on each other to navigate the unknown. And the service piece goes does go back to that. The way we navigate change well is together. And if change, for example, if change happens, that prevents you from doing what you would like to do, the number one thing you can do to bring fulfillment and a sense of having made the best of that change is to help someone else be able to achieve what they want to do amidst that change. If that makes that sense of purpose, that sense of connection, that sense of frankly, possibly, right. One possibility might have been eliminated or changed dramatically. Another possibility opens up. Throw yourself towards that and you and those you serve are going to be better off.

Jonathan Fields (00:24:30) - Yeah, I mean, sort of like the more expansive we get, the more engaged we get with other people, the better we handle this, this whole experience and we.

April Rinne (00:24:39) - Realize we're not really that distinctive entities, so to speak, right? Like the sense of you're defining your success through the success of others, you can help.

April Rinne (00:24:49) - That makes you a much more successful person.

Jonathan Fields (00:24:51) - Yeah. Okay. So we've sort of woven between six of the eight superpowers that we've talked about here. I do want to touch on on the final two before we wrap up our conversation. Again, at least one of these very counterintuitive because we're talking about navigating change, which a lot of people think about as controlling it. Not necessarily true. And one of your invitations is to get lost in the process of navigating change.

April Rinne (00:25:14) - Yes. I love. I love Get lost. I have a special, a soft spot in my heart for it because it's the one that relates most closely in terms of how do I practice. This relates to travel. It relates to like getting out there, stretching beyond your comfort zone. So getting lost is again, when we say get lost or that you've gotten lost. If I say to you you got lost, usually the unspoken is you failed. You couldn't find your way, you screwed up. Whatever. Not good stigma, whatever.

April Rinne (00:25:43) - When you think about a world in flux, a world of constant change, we are all going to be feeling lost, getting lost, if you will, all the time in terms of when no one knows what to do, you're lost. This is about not just shifting the narrative from acknowledging that that's part of the human condition, but to develop the muscle that actively seeks to get lost, to feel lost, and to be comfortable navigating through that, not knowing. And this plays out in so many different ways. So one thing I'll just put this on the side. This is the number one leadership quality needed today. In survey after survey after survey is comfort with not knowing your tolerance for not knowing and being completely okay with that. What do we typically hear? Like, No, you have to know the way. You have to have the plan. You have to know how far. You have to know what time. Like we have to have this again, figuratively, this path set out in stone and know exactly what our what, how, how the journey is going to go.

April Rinne (00:26:41) - Whereas in reality, that's just setting yourself up for frustration and friction. ET cetera. But the way I like to phrase this is asking people like, think about times and travel is what often comes up when you thought you knew where you were going and you got lost. What ended up happening? And they often go, oh, we, we, we we found this place that we didn't know about and it was awesome. It was our favorite day. Or we learned something about ourselves or we we met this new person and they were really kind. And you think about that and why can't we apply that? Getting lost in that kind of setting is celebrated. It's memories. Why can't we apply that in other parts of our life? Not everywhere, all the time. But why can't we see that as a strength? Because again, the ability to simply be okay and keep the anxiety and fear at bay, but also keep the, oh my gosh, I just screwed up. I got lost self talk.

April Rinne (00:27:37) - To keep those things at bay is what allows you to stay present and oriented as you navigate, frankly, uncharted territory. Yeah.

Jonathan Fields (00:27:46) - And in my mind it's the getting lost like we talked about possibility. That's where the possibility lies. Like if like if you're always in the known situation, like there's no possibility you're either doing what you've already done before or replicating what somebody else has done and why bother at that point? Like, that's what I always joke.

April Rinne (00:28:03) - Like there's nothing respectfully to highways. There's nothing new on the interstate. It's the detours. You want to go off the road, that's where you're going to find something new. Yeah, the well-worn. Yeah. So I'm glad. I think echoing Echo completely agree.

Jonathan Fields (00:28:19) - Completely. And that brings us home with your notion of knowing you're enough. And I think so much of what we've been talking to also indirectly, is knowing yourself in a lot of different ways. So knowing you're enough is sort of like this subset of knowing yourself.

April Rinne (00:28:33) - Yes. And it manifests in two ways.

April Rinne (00:28:35) - And I've had people ask me whether or not the chapter is a typo because I phrase it as, No, you're you, you are right.

Jonathan Fields (00:28:42) - There's no apostrophe.

April Rinne (00:28:43) - Any on no you apostrophe re that you are enough. And so these things again, they work with each other. But what we're getting at on the form of the no you're enough while you are is very much a counterbalance to the reality of living in a more and more and more and more and more society and not just more money or more power, but more likes, more clicks, more clothes, more, more everything. Right. And what's and social media has lit that on fire. But it's really a consumer-driven economy that then has technology that can just tell us the fact that when there's more and more and more and more and more out there, the unwritten piece, the invisible piece, but sometimes it's visible is that you will never have that more, you will never have enough. You will you're always going to be striving for something you don't have, which makes a lot of people unhappy, makes a lot of people not feel like they're, you know, that question their self-worth, etcetera.

April Rinne (00:29:39) - And so we're looking at this knowing that you are enough. And I would say the knowing you are enough is wisdom for everyone at all times, not just around change, not just around the unknown. It is just like we need to recognize that we've always, you and I and everyone has always been enough. And it's consumer mass marketers primarily that are feeding us a diet of you're not enough, but you will be if you buy this product or that service. Well, says who? Right? If you look at most of human history, we didn't live in a consumer economy for most of human history. More. Was not the goal enough was the goal. And enough is plenty. Enough means having the having enough to thrive, which doesn't mean more and more, more, more, more. And I'll often use the analogy of luggage. Right? How much luggage do you want to take on a trip? You want to have all the things you'll need, You know, enough a warm jacket and whatnot, more luggage.

April Rinne (00:30:39) - You do not want to be hauling that around. More luggage is excess. And yet that's how we treat a trip we're going to take, you know, to another destination. Why don't we apply that to the journey of life? And these things work in tandem. So this idea that you are enough, but then knowing you're enough from a sustainability perspective, right, that that implicates directly your ability to navigate change. Because what happens is that when you're going after more and more and more and more and more and change hits, it is much harder to course correct, much harder to adapt, much harder to pivot because you've actually got not just overhead, but you have a lot of baggage that you're carrying around.

Jonathan Fields (00:31:17) - Yeah. And what's so fascinating, too, is that you hear so many stories of people where they have they've worked so hard that they've given up so much in the pursuit of more and more and more and more and more like accumulation and status as the representation of success. And then something big and profound happens.

Jonathan Fields (00:31:33) - Massive change that brings them to the knees and often eliminates all the stuff. And it's brutal. But at the same time, oftentimes will people will share. There's a sense of freedom that has come with that to actually not have to think about maintaining all of this stuff anymore and just starting fresh and be much simpler and more streamlined. So I can see it. Working on these different levels sounds like a great place for us to wrap up this week's conversation with you. Thank you for your wisdom and your heart. Great.

April Rinne (00:32:03) - Thank you. This has been lovely.

Jonathan Fields (00:32:04) - And for everyone else in our fabulous listening community. We'll see you all here next time. Take care. So what a fun and really enlightening discussion. Wrapping up our two-part series with April Rinne. From empowering career perspectives to cultivating hope among uncertainty, her insights gave me so much to reflect on and April's invitation to intentionally get lost and discover opportunity beyond well-worn paths really resonated too. I hope her vision of navigating change through trust, care and openness to discovery sparks your own journeys.

Jonathan Fields (00:32:41) - Next Chapter. Until Next Time, I'm Jonathan Fields. And this is sparked.