How to Recognize & Address Burnout

LinkedIn (00:00:00) - LinkedIn Presents.

Jonathan Fields (00:00:27) - So how do you know if you're genuinely no longer interested in the work that you're doing and it's time to do some reimagining or if you're actually just burned out and literally nothing you do will excite you until you step into a place of renewal. So many of us have felt it completely depleted, disconnected from work we once loved. The cynicism creeps in, passion fades. You're just kind of going through the motions every day. You start to dread facing responsibilities that used to bring you joy. It is painfully common, yet seldom discussed, and certainly not in a constructive way. We often just kind of suffer in silence, unsure what to do next. Should you walk away? Have you lost your spark for good? Is it time to turn the page on a new opportunity? Or is burnout at the heart of what you're feeling? And if so, what can we do about it? To delve into these questions in this week's Sparked Hottake episode, we're in conversation with Braintrust member Deborah Owens, an executive coach and corporate trainer with 20 years of experience working with Fortune 500 companies.

Jonathan Fields (00:01:33) - And she helps high potential professionals, particularly women of color, navigate workplace barriers and advocate for themselves more effectively. Deborah is also the founder of corporate Ally, a global community focused on elevating and empowering women of color in corporate settings. And through her own experience as well as her clients. She shares the vital signs that we often miss until it's too late and really stresses the critical tools that we can use before burnout escalates. And together we offer insights about how we can regain perspective when burnout clouds are thinking and makes it near impossible to know if we're on the wrong path or just in need of renewal. Deborah also shares important data and validating context for professionals of color, especially women who experienced layers of burden contributing to their experience in working environments. And she poses the question Could there be such a thing as compound burnout? So tune in to hear some encouraging prompts for you to consider and important reminders on how to reorient yourself towards well-being in a work world that often seems perpetually tilting toward burnout. I'm Jonathan Fields and this is SPARKED.

Jonathan Fields (00:02:52) - Hey, before we dive into today's show, you know, we've learned that a lot of our listeners are sort of at this moment where they're really exploring the notion of work in their lives and their next moves in their careers. And if you are in that place, we talk about the spark and the sparketypes a lot on this show, this body of work that we've developed to help you really identify what makes you come alive and how to apply that to the world of work. We've heard from a lot of folks that they would also love some help along that journey. If you're curious, you can also find on our website a directory of Certified Sparketype Advisors who know this body of work and can really help coach and guide you through it. So we'll drop a link to the show notes in that right now. And if it feels interesting to you and you just like somebody to help guide you through this next part of your career or work journey, take a look and see if somebody resonates. It might be the perfect fit to help you along this next leg of your journey.

Jonathan Fields (00:03:47) - Again, that link is in the show notes now.

LinkedIn (00:03:58) - 

Jonathan Fields (00:04:30) - Deborah Owens. It is great to be back in conversation. Member of the Sparked Brain Trust Always going deep into interesting topic. So today is one of our Sparked Hottake episodes where we choose one topic that is out there in the workplace that either enables or impedes us from doing good work and also living good lives and really deconstruct it a little bit. So the topic we have today, we're going to start broadly and then we're going to narrow down the topic also.

Jonathan Fields (00:05:01) - So I'm going to turn it over to you to tee this up.

Deborah Owens (00:05:04) - Jonathan. It's great to be back talking after a really wonderful summer. I think as we think about the rest of the year and going into a new year, oftentimes we say we want to work differently. We want to be more productive maybe, or we want to hustle less. We don't want to spend all of our waking hours with the grind. And I think there's been an increase in this country with burnout. I actually had a burnout situation at work and I think you did two. And that is something that I've been talking with people in my community and also my one on one client with over the summer. I've had a number of people who have experienced burnout. And I think before we jump into it, we can talk about what is burnout. And so I'm going to share my definition of burnout. This is not the probably the medical definition, but if I could, I had burnout and I ended up going to India to a wellness facility, because in my heart of hearts, I even though I had a lot of physical manifestations, I felt deeply that I needed some level of healing, not prescriptions, like there was something deeper that was going on with my body because it was so out of whack.

Deborah Owens (00:06:26) - And I remember the physician and he he read my pulse because I'm like, I don't understand what is going on. Why aren't I getting better? What is wrong? And he says, Give me your pulse. And he did it. And he says, Debbie, we see a lot of sick people here. He said, This is easy. You're totally depleted. Your body is totally depleted. And an acupuncturist here in the state had also told me that I had what they call in Chinese medicine a blood disease when they filled their pulse. And it's very thin, it's wiry, and they can fill other things going on. And for a very high strung type A personality, I was like, what? I'm totally depleted. I'll be honest, Jonathan. I didn't even know what that meant. I said, But okay, well, how do we fix it? How long does that take? Can, can we can you do something in a week? Will it take a week? How long will we take? And so he gave me a very non-traditional answer.

Deborah Owens (00:07:31) - He's like, Well, it takes as long as it takes. And I was like, Well, what kind of answer is that? I, I need some timelines here. Are we talking a week, two weeks, six weeks? And he also said, how long did it take you to get here to this point? And so I, I define burnout is when your body mentally and physically almost shut down against your will where you can no longer. Control. How you're feeling. You know how we often say and I think this is this is something we do all the time. We did this a lot in corporate and somebody says, How are you doing? Oh, I'm okay. Even though we know we're not okay, every fiber in our body is telling you you're not okay. So for me, what it burnout looked like. So I wasn't eating, I wasn't sleeping, grinding teeth, hair falling out, none of the body functions working, focusing at a Uber level. And I think even that intensity of focus was burning me out.

Deborah Owens (00:08:49) - And ultimately I had to go on medical leave and I couldn't find it. But I wanted to pull up some medical work because I had to to see someone and be evaluated. And it's interesting what they said. And this document, this medical document, they basically said that the work habits and the way I live that had made me successful were no longer working for my body and that I drastically needed to change how I was living and working. And since my experience, I've been very committed to trying to support others as they go through taking care of their wellness. But more importantly, and I think something that we can all do is not be a party to it. So when one of my clients, whether it's one on 1 or 1 of my corporate clients, says, Oh, I'm really sick right now, but can we meet on Saturday? No, we can't. Or I've been so swamped. Oh God, I'm under the weather. But can we do something at 9:00 at night? No, we can't.

Deborah Owens (00:10:01) - And it's not because I'm trying to be a hard ass, but I don't want to contribute to that lifestyle that I know is harming people. I actually had a client when I was in corporate who was sending me emails and I didn't know she was in labor until she happened to mention. And one of the emails she said, I'm in labor. I said, You're in labor email. Why? Why are you sending emails? And she got back to me and says, Well, there's really nothing for you to do. I mean, there's really nothing going on right now, so it's fine for me to catch up on work and all of that. And I did. I said, Do not send me any more emails. I will not be a part of this because for me, I'm like, I am not going to be working with someone who's in labor. If they want to do that, that's fine. But something just felt so wrong about that. Exchanging emails on work projects and you're in labor like in the hospital, labor hospital room.

Deborah Owens (00:11:04) - I so I very much want to support others so that their health does not have to be completely depleted and their body basically shuts down before they realize that, hey, I might be doing harm to myself and my health just has to come first.

Jonathan Fields (00:11:30) - Yeah. And by the way, building on your definition, the World Health Organization actually defines this. And they have sort of three criteria that they use. They say that the three things that they look at are what you describe feelings of energy depletion or exhaustion. The second one is, which I think is really interesting, they describe as increased mental distance from one's job or feelings of negativism or cynicism related to one's job. And the third one is reduced professional efficacy. So it's interesting, you know, and you focus a lot on that first one, feelings of energy depletion and exhaustion. And I think, you know, a lot of us feel feel that at various different times. And then when you add in I thought that second, second element was really interesting, increased mental distance from one's job or feelings of negativism or cynicism related to one's job.

Jonathan Fields (00:12:35) - Because I think sometimes that's the one we miss. We feel the energy depletion, we feel the exhaustion. We notice at some point the, quote, reduced professional efficacy. We know we're just not performing at our best. But that feeling of distance and then like that creeping in of negativism and cynicism, that's the thing that I think we tend to miss often, but it also is a feeling which can be so devastating from us because that's the feeling of like, I just I'm completely disconnected from this experience and. Six months before. You're like, I love this experience. Like I'm connected to the mission and this and that, and then you're like, you feel the exact opposite, and then it tips into that negativism. Like, I actually really actively dislike this, and then it tips into cynicism. You know, it's like, this will never work. Like, you know, and and circumstances like may not have changed a lot, you know, But the way that we're interacting with the work really just it's like this progression.

Jonathan Fields (00:13:41) - And oftentimes I feel like once we actually do even realize that those feelings exist, it's so far down the road that we kind of just say to ourselves, Well, this is just okay. So I feel no connection to this anymore. I'm actually like negative about it. I'm a cynic about it. Clearly, this is not for me anymore. Rather than saying, no, actually, maybe there's a lot of this that is for me. But the there are elements of it that have tipped me into burnout and that that there are things that I can work on or remedy or fix or there are ways internally that I'm interacting with the work that I can pull back from there, boundaries that I can put up that I can actually do something about. And we don't realize that actually there may be a lot that's great about this that's salvageable, but we need to actually make some shifts to pull us out of burnout. And and the other big thing is that and you and I have talked about this over the years, it is so hard to make an intelligent decision about that moment when you're in this state.

Jonathan Fields (00:14:52) - You know, it's just because you just can't think or see clearly.

Deborah Owens (00:14:57) - No. And oftentimes I think other people see it before you do. So the second one, when we talked about increased mental distance and the cynicism and the the negativity, I actually think it's very much like when you're in a relationship and they say one of the worst things is you become indifferent. And I think actually people don't think others see it, but others do see it. And I think the phrasing might be a little different. So it may be Jonathan seems very disengaged. Jonathan doesn't seem to have a lot of energy around this topic. Jonathan seems like he's doing the work. Period. Whatever needs to be done, he's checking the boxes. You know, you hear people say, yeah, they're checking the boxes, but they're not doing much more than that. And I actually think people sometimes see it before you do because I call it leakage. It just starts coming out of you. You can't control it in everyday conversation.

Deborah Owens (00:16:14) - Somebody may say something and then you add on a comment and it's just kind of negative and you start to notice that this is a person like all their comments are like, I hate the way we do this. The way this is done here is this place doesn't care about folks. And I think it's it's okay to point out things that may need improving, but you may go from a person who was very solution oriented or was like, hey, you know, I don't like the way this is working. What about if we tried this or what about, you know, you still had some of those creative juices and that passion going to a person who just says, This sucks, period. That's it. And that's really all you have to give, right? And I've worked with people and you may have to when you realize that they are so disengaged that even if they bring a project, it was fine. But you may have expected more. There's something in your you're knowing that you're like, this is all they have to give.

Deborah Owens (00:17:20) - They are tapped out. Have you ever worked with somebody like that? And you're like.

Jonathan Fields (00:17:24) - Yeah, this is I've been I've been that person also.

Deborah Owens (00:17:26) - Yeah, I have to like.

Deborah Owens (00:17:28) - You know, they're just tapped out. This is they don't have any more to give. And I think I think people see it and sometimes, you know, people may start asking you questions. Hey, is everything okay? How's it going? How's the workload? You know, people will say things like, You seem a little distant. You don't seem as an engaged. I noticed you were really quiet in the meeting today. Usually you have some. Some ideas you're sharing. Is everything okay? And I think those are the beginning when people start to notice it. And of course, by the time people start to notice it, you're deep in it. Because in the beginning we're trying to cover that, right? So when you were that person, you weren't trying to walk out, walk around like you were tapped out.

Deborah Owens (00:18:16) - Right. You were trying to be your usual self.

Jonathan Fields (00:18:19) - Yeah, 100%. Like you want to show up and do the work. And especially if you're in a super high pressure or super high stress, high paced environment where the stakes are really high. And you know, and I have been in those environments where they've been created by employers and I have been in those environments where I created them myself. And and they equally devastating. And I to this day continued to like learn that lesson of like where the edge is. But yeah, you want to you want to feel like you're like showing up and giving your all and doing your best, especially when you really do care about the people around you and the mission and like what you're working towards. You know, I think sometimes folks feel like, you know, if the mission really matters to you, you know, if that if you're down for the cause, like there's no such thing as burnout, you know, you have this endless well of energy and you can keep working and it's like, I think that may help you like drawn a reservoir of energy because, you know, it really matters and you care about this thing.

Jonathan Fields (00:19:20) - But there is no such thing as being immune to burnout. Like, even if you're like passion driven by the thing that you do, there are moments where you just tip into the space where it's everything starts to cascade downward. And like we said, you know, oftentimes it's really hard to be objective, you know, to say like, you know, and that's why I think oftentimes the reaction is, I guess this thing isn't right for me anymore and I need to walk away rather than just know I'm actually really burned out. I need to actually I need to hit pause and I need to do a couple of things to take care of myself. I need to rejuvenate and restore so that I'm back to a point where I can think clearly enough to understand. Is this actually still for me or is it not for me? And if it is still for me, how can I step back into it in a way that's healthy and constructive? I mean, this is what I in the very past life as a lawyer, when I finally left the profession after being in a mega firm and working just like huge hours and my whole body was just crumbling and I was wildly burned out.

Jonathan Fields (00:20:33) - Something in me said, You are not capable of making an objective, rational decision right now. So before I actually tendered my resignation, I actually went in and I requested a leave of absence. And I took from my recollection, this is a long time ago. Now it's about a month because I sensed it was going to take me about that amount of time to recover enough health and objectivity to be able to know, is this truly not for me? Or am I just so depleted and so withdrawn that I can't actually make a decision right now? And my decision ultimately was still to leave, but it made it from a place where I was no longer burned out when I made that decision. And and I wonder sometimes, like, how can we you know, I was in a very fortunate position. I was given the ability to take a leave of absence. You know, this wasn't a paid thing, but I was like, okay, financially enough at the time where I could sustain that. And for folks who aren't in that state, you know, like but you are burned out, like how can you what are the sort of like the micro moves that you can make to get okay enough to realize what's going on and then figure out what is the most sensible decision for me.

Jonathan Fields (00:21:53) - Now, I'm curious because I know that this has been a conversation with so many of your clients over the years. What's your take on that?

Deborah Owens (00:21:59) - Well, I mean, it was a it was a conversation I had to have with myself. I was fortunate in that in our company we had something called short term leave. And I want to just start there because there are a lot of companies out there that offer it. The big deal is a lot of people, particularly I'm going to say this professionals of color don't use it because there's this concept I think, that many of us have around short term leave. That's for people who are sick. So if our heads not wrapped up in gauze, if we're not limping, but if we can still get our fingers on that keyboard and get on a zoom call, then we feel like we're okay, we can work. And that's when it's time to go back to this definition of it. So the first is lots of companies have programs there. So give you an example.

Deborah Owens (00:22:58) - This will be for people with larger corporations, not for everybody. And I didn't even know this because I had never been in this situation. We had short term leave. You get full pay for six months, right? So that's one option. Check on your short term leave status. All right. The second thing is even companies that don't offer, who may not offer that most companies have something called employee assistance programs. So you can talk to somebody. I think that's really important because sometimes you just need to talk about what's going on with you. And you may realize that it's not the job or it's not the full job, to your point, but it might be elements of that job that need to change. Or maybe there's some other things going on in your life that are spilling over into work. Or maybe you have some health issues that need to be addressed that are contributing to this. And maybe you just need to take a break. Maybe you've been working 80 hours a week for the last 20 years.

Deborah Owens (00:24:05) - You need a break. And that's that's allowed. One of the things that I didn't know when I was younger is that the way I used to work and you can probably relate to this. I never asked myself, was this lifestyle sustainable? Like, can you do this for 30 years? And I think the answer is no. You cannot work 40 I mean, 60 hours a week on weekends for 30 years and not expect it to not have an impact on your well-being. So I would say those are two things. If you're working with a company, we have a lot of people who are now in the gig economy, right? So you may not have insurance or you may not have those extra protection for a company. The great thing is there are organizations out there. There are even hospitals who have mental health clinics, and they do it on a sliding scale. So if you can pay, great. But if you can't, those resources are available. I've done this, and I have a feeling that you might have done a version of this.

Deborah Owens (00:25:15) - Have you ever done, like, your own personal little retreat?

Jonathan Fields (00:25:19) - Yeah.

Deborah Owens (00:25:19) - And I mean, I think that's something it doesn't have to be elaborate where you have to go to some exotic location or you have to go find the perfect spot in Montana or Joshua Tree. And, you know, it doesn't have to be that, but maybe find a way that you can give yourself some silence to really think about what's going on. You know, that could be going to a friend's house. You don't want to stay because sometimes change of scenery, I found, is helpful. Have you found change of scenery to be helpful? Sometimes in these scenarios I found it really helpful.

Jonathan Fields (00:25:55) - It's huge, especially a change of scenery if it brings me closer to nature has been. It's a game changer for me. I know there's interesting research that supports that more broadly, but I find that if I can and and again, it doesn't mean that you're getting a cabin in the woods in the mountains. Right? This can literally be I mean, this was I lived in New York City for 30 years.

Jonathan Fields (00:26:18) - And the place that we lived was strategically chosen because it was three blocks to Central Park, which is one of the biggest green spaces in the world, especially in a city, and then two blocks in the other direction from the Hudson River. And I would regularly, like go into the park and go and just walk along the river and being outside, going from being an internal working space, going into a natural environment, even in the context of a huge city and just for 45 minutes like that was doing that on a regular basis was just really important and allowing me to reset and refuel a little bit and also have have a shift in perspective and be able to just kind of see a little bit better more clearly what was really going on both within me and around me.

Deborah Owens (00:27:05) - Yeah. So I would say if you can add some of that to your daily schedule, just to give yourself a mental break, whether it's walks, you know, there are days when I might have three short walks a day. I can't do a two hour walk or but you know, I have a dog.

Deborah Owens (00:27:22) - So sometimes we'll after a long call, will make a loop. Yeah. Then a few hours later will make the same loop again. The other thing that I found that's been helpful to people and this was helpful to me at a time when I was going through a little bit of that was tapping into maybe a hobby you have. So I remember I begin painting. I'm not you're never going to see my work in a gallery. My husband won't even put it up in his office, but it gave me just a space to almost it was it was almost meditative. Yeah. So for some people that could be jewelry making, that could be woodworking, it could be any number of things, but something that allows your mind to be calm and peaceful and just focus without that type of distraction. And I just want to point on one of the other. Are things which I think is huge, which is right in front of you. That you can do is let people know what's going on. I think a lot of times we don't want to talk about it because we don't think people are going to believe us.

Deborah Owens (00:28:34) - People are going to think we're faking it. If you grew up in my generation, you know, because I've had this am I being lazy? Is it is it just am I just being lazy because I really feel like I can't do I have nothing else to give, but maybe I'm just not working hard enough. Maybe I'm not pushing myself hard enough. But I would I would say talk to someone. Church, sorority, best friend, stranger on the street who's sitting next to you at the park bench. But I would say let people know what's going on with you because I'm a believer in this. Eight out of ten times that person is going to say, I'm going through something like that right now. I've been through that. How can I help?

Jonathan Fields (00:29:23) - Yeah, I think that makes a huge difference is not being super stoic about it. I do want to before we wrap up, I do want to circle back to something that you mentioned earlier in the conversation, though, and and ask you to expand on it a bit because you mentioned the effect of burnout on professionals of color.

Jonathan Fields (00:29:40) - And I know you have a perspective that's really unique and I'd love your perspective on on that experience and how it may be different than others.

Deborah Owens (00:29:49) - Yeah. So oftentimes when we talk about burnout, we talk about the energy, we talk about being detached from work. But when you're talking about, I think professionals of color, particularly black women, because there is actual data on it and I'm going to give you some. It's 78% of black women report that they sometimes rarely or never have the ability to go home at the end of the workday with any energy in reserve. Coupled with the regular burnout factors we talk about. Here's additional things. 72% of black women engage in code switching. Less than 50% of black women believe that they can talk about race without negative consequences. And only 4,041% think that they can raise the issue of anti blackness. So you're dealing with all of these things racism, sexism, ageism, bias. People are constantly pointing out how they think you are different. You know, I wear my hair natural, Jonathan.

Deborah Owens (00:30:50) - I cannot tell you today and 2023 what a stressor hair is for many black women and the comments they receive about whether their hair is professional or not. And again, it doesn't show up. Sometimes it does show up like, oh, your hair's not professional. But I've had people say, like their boss has said, Oh, are you going to wear your hair like that for the presentation? You know, so you're constantly dealing with these microaggressions that just burn you out. In addition to all of the other stuff, there's a higher level of scrutiny. Give you an example. Not that long ago, there was a black woman. They were the only black women at the organization. One was had been assigned the mentor to the other. They were at a meeting and they were networking and connecting with other people. And remember, they're the only black women may have been the only black people in the organization. Right? One of them was pulled aside and ask, why are they only interacting with each other? This is not year 2000.

Deborah Owens (00:31:54) - This is 2023. You know, I know that when I was in corporate. Have you ever been in the hallway? Or maybe you're at a meeting. You might be 3 or 4 people gathered together talking. This never failed. If there are 3 or 4 black people gathered around, just, you know, talking, just colleagues, there would be someone who's a non-black person who would always say, hey, is there a meeting going on? And there's a lot of history behind that statement. But these are things you're dealing with every day, everything from the color of your nail polish, asking crazy and appropriate questions and having to determine, you know, multiple times a day. Do I address this? Do I let it go? And having to play that out 30 minutes, you know, having to play that out in your brain. 30s okay, wait a minute. Okay. If I address this, if I don't address it and like but imagine having to do that all day long and then you add on 60 hour work week.

Deborah Owens (00:32:59) - Extra level of scrutiny, barriers that other people aren't dealing with, lack of support. And these are all things that are documented. And I don't know, I just learned this term the other day because I'm still grieving the loss of my father. But someone told me I was experiencing compound grief. So I don't know, is there compound burnout where, you know, there's this level of burnout, but then you add all of that. And typically, I would say by the time I realized that I was we didn't even call it burnout back then, but by the time I realized something was wrong, it had been going on for years, years. And there's a belief that that is just what your existence is as a black woman in corporate America. So there's burnout and then there is burnout. And there's so much research that shows that professionals color, but black women in particular, underpaid, less supported, less likely to be promoted to manager, more likely than any other group to experience microaggression, bias, racism on a daily basis.

Deborah Owens (00:34:15) - And then you add all of that other stuff and then you're worried about your kids. You know, I have a 16 year old son. I live in a affluent area. Oh my God, I hope he doesn't get pulled over by the cops. You know, I hope someone's not following him in the store. So you add all of these things. I hope someone doesn't come into our neighborhood and decides they want to shoot up people because of the color of their skin. So these are all things that are not just, oh, every now and then, these are all everyday scenarios. And then to make it even worse, because I don't remember experiencing this, but then you have a political climate that is not that causes many people to feel unsafe in this country and even in their workplaces. And these are often for many professionals of color. But I'll just speak as a black woman. These are conversations we can't have. So we have to figure out. We end up internalizing it. But we these are things we're always trying to figure out how do I process this and all this other stuff as well?

Jonathan Fields (00:35:22) - Yeah.

Jonathan Fields (00:35:22) - So it's like it just it piles on to all the other contributors towards burnout. And it's just it's sort of like additional things that lead to energy depletion and to concern and to stress.

Deborah Owens (00:35:38) - It's like a river rushing towards you on a daily basis and you're just trying to, you know, keep your keep your head above water. But I can't tell you, you know, how people have worked in environments where they you know, they have televisions now in the workplace and, you know, where things have been on TV that have made them very uncomfortable because of the conversations that follow these things that they see on TV. And every day you have the stress of trying to decide, do I let it go? Do I dress it? And then deal with all of the fallout? That in itself is mentally exhausting.

Jonathan Fields (00:36:20) - And you add it all together and if you're already tipping towards burnout, yeah, it just exacerbates the whole problem. And and I think all the things that you've shared, you know, the, the whether it's seeking professional help, whether it's talking to folks in your organization about short term or longer term leave, whether it is finding the support of friends, of clergy, of family, of whoever it may be, shifting your physical environment.

Jonathan Fields (00:36:51) - These are all things and I know places like the Mayo Clinic add in things like like regular exercise and icing on sleep and a lot of things that we know about. But I think just acknowledging in the first place like, oh, there's something going on. This is I'm feeling I'm feeling these things, I'm feeling depleted and exhausted and disconnected, like I'm feeling distance from my work and maybe even like feeling really negative about it. And and I'm not showing up as my best self. It's crystal clear to me that these are all signals. And I think the big thing we want to circle around to as we wrap up is the notion that people have different contributors to this state. Different people are going to tip into it in different ways and for different reasons. And it's important to be aware of sort of like the the symptoms of being in this state so that we can start to recognize it when we're in it and then realize there are things that we can do. When we feel it. And additionally, if we're thinking, well, we're feeling all these different things and you know, maybe this just isn't the thing for me, you know, like maybe like it used to be the thing for me, and now it's not anymore.

Jonathan Fields (00:38:12) - You may be right. You may not be right. But this also that may be a sign to say, okay, am I experiencing burnout? And if so, how can I create the distance needed to understand whether this is burnout speaking or whether this opportunity has truly changed in a way, or I've grown in a way where it no longer truly is aligned so that you can make a more objective decision. So for those listening, if you experiencing this, I hope this has been helpful and you have some ways of helping to identify what's going on and some tools to start thinking about and reach out to people. You are never alone in this experience. There are always, whether it's professional resources, whether it's the company, whether it's friends, family, whoever. Somebody said to me recently it was actually in a conversation that I had on Good Life Project for somebody who was talking about how we all tend to suffer at different times. And she had a family rule and the family rule was never suffer alone.

Jonathan Fields (00:39:16) - I like.

Jonathan Fields (00:39:17) - That. Yeah, I think that applies it was I think that applies here as well. So thanks so much, Deborah, for your awesome input as always and wise insight for all of our listening audience. Thanks for tuning in and we will see you here again next week on Spark. Take care. Hey, so I hope you enjoyed that conversation. Learned a little something about your own quest to come alive in work in life and maybe feel a little bit less alone along this journey to find and do what sparks you. And if you'd love to share your own moment and question with us, we would love to hear from you. Just go ahead and click on the submissions link in the show notes to get the details on how to do that. And remember, if you're at a moment of exploration looking to find and do or even create work that makes you come more fully live, that brings more meaning and purpose and joy into your life, take the time to discover your own personal spark.

Jonathan Fields (00:40:11) - A type for free at Sparketype. It'll open your eyes to a deeper understanding of yourself and open the door to possibility like never before. And hey, if you're finding value in these conversations, please just take an extra second right now to follow and rate SPARKED in your favorite podcast app. This is so helpful in helping others find the show and growing our community so that we can all come alive and work in life together. Until next time. I'm Jonathan Fields. And this is SPARKED.