How to Reframe Performance Reviews from a Confrontation to a Collaboration

LinkedIn: [00:00:00] Linkedin presents.

Jonathan Fields: [00:00:10] So imagine feeling like no matter how hard you work, how much you contribute, you just can't seem to get the recognition or advancement or even the feedback that you deserve. It's frustrating, especially that last part. I mean, can you remember a time when a vague performance review left you just completely unsure what to actually think about, let alone change? Or when subtle biases infected feedback limiting your growth? I'm sure a lot of us can. So how can we craft a more growth-oriented, collaborative feedback process to dig into these questions? In this week's SPARKED Hot Take episode, we're in conversation with Braintrust member Deborah Owens, an executive coach and corporate trainer with 20 years of experience working with fortune 500 companies. She helps professionals, particularly women of color, navigate workplace barriers and advocate for themselves more effectively. And Deborah is also the founder of Corporate Alleycat, a global community focused on elevating and empowering women of color in corporate settings. Together, we question what are the common pitfalls that undermine performance reviews and inhibit collaborative communication? And how can we reframe performance management as a partnership, not an adversarial process? And Deborah also reveals research showing marginalized groups often receive far less actionable feedback, impeding their advancement. This conversation will leave you with examples of empowering questions to seek clarity when feedback feels unclear, and useful tips to provide constructive feedback that acknowledges diverse perspectives and enables mutual understanding. I'm Jonathan Fields and this is SPARKED. Hey, before we dive into today's show, you know, we've learned that a lot of our listeners are sort of at this moment where they're really exploring the notion of work in their lives and their next moves in their careers.

Jonathan Fields: [00:02:06] And if you are in that place, we talk about SPARKED and the Sparketypes a lot on this show, this body of work that we've developed to help you really identify what makes you come alive and how to apply that to the world of work. We've heard from a lot of folks that they would also love some help along that journey. If you're curious, you can also find on our website a directory of Certified Sparketype Advisors who know this body of work and can really help coach and guide you through it. So we'll drop a link to the show notes in that right now. And if it feels interesting to you and you just like somebody to help guide you through this next part of your career or work journey, take a look and see if somebody resonates. It might be the perfect fit to help you along this next leg of your journey. Again, that link is in the show notes now. Deborah Owens is always great to be hanging out with you, sharing ideas and learning from you. And our topic today is interesting and timely. We are going to be exploring, not necessarily the idea of performance reviews that'll come into it a bit, but having performance conversations, having sort of evaluative conversations, some of the things that can go right, some of the things that can go wrong, and some ideas on what we might think about as we step into these conversations to really get what we need. So I'm going to kind of turn it over to you to tee this off for us.

Deborah Owens: [00:03:34] Well, Jonathan, it's great hanging out with you as always. And today this is a really, I think, relevant conversation on a lot of different levels. But there's an article that I thought we could talk about a little bit. And it's entitled black women are less likely to get quality feedback at work that impacts their earnings and leadership opportunities over time. And this was actually in Forbes magazine last year. And I think it's really important because right now we have everybody's doing DEI, they're doing DEIB, they're doing IED. I mean, all kinds of versions of diversity, inclusion, representation, belonging. But I think one of the things that's really important, it's great to put all of that effort into bringing people into your organization so that you can have more diversity and you can have more representation. But I think it's really important that when you bring people in, that you give them the tools and the feedback they need to grow and advance in their careers. And I've known this to be true for a long time, but what people are talking about quite a bit now is the bias that can show up in performance reviews. So give you an example is that black women are nine times more likely to receive non-actionable feedback at work. So they had another statistic in here, which was for every piece of non-actionable feedback that a white male under 40 receives, a black woman would get 8.8 pieces of non-actionable feedback.

Jonathan Fields: [00:05:20] So tell me what we're actually talking about. What what are we talking about when we use the phrase non actionable feedback then.

Deborah Owens: [00:05:25] So basically vague not specific. It's it's kind of like if I said to you Jonathan you're not reliable. And I put that in your performance review. So how does that help you. Do you know what I'm talking about.

Jonathan Fields: [00:05:41] Not really know.

Deborah Owens: [00:05:43] So that's that's non-actionable feedback. It's feedback like here's one that black women often get. It's actually very common. And it's we've heard your difficult to work with. So if I said to you Jonathan Jonathan you're doing good work. But I've heard you're difficult to work with. What does that mean.

Jonathan Fields: [00:06:05] Um, I have I don't I wouldn't know what to do with that.

Deborah Owens: [00:06:09] Exactly. I had a colleague of mine who actually got a feedback put into their performance review that they were angry. What does that mean? And so what that means, particularly for professionals of color, particularly for black women, is oftentimes it begins to feel very subjective and not very objective. And oftentimes you see bias when things are really related to personality and not performance or style and not competency. And so the reason I was really excited for us to have this conversation is because I think everybody wants to get good feedback. And the question is, if you happen to have a manager who's not giving you the feedback you need, how can you get it?

Jonathan Fields: [00:07:00] Yeah, and I think that's a question that is across the board.

Deborah Owens: [00:07:03] Also across the board universal.

Jonathan Fields: [00:07:06] Right. We all we want to know how we're doing. We want to know you know we tend to have a sense I think for how, you know, how we think we're showing up. But I think it's also important to explore. Does the way that we feel that we're showing up align with the way that we're being perceived? Because that's not always true. You know, everyone brings their subjectivities to a particular engagement or interaction or experience. Um, and you're right. I think it's important for us to have regular mechanisms to understand, not just how do we feel like we're showing up. And some review processes actually will ask you that. Like, how do you feel that you've been doing in X, Y and Z category? And then they'll sort of like give this contrast of like, well, this is how folks who have contributed to the review process feel that these categories have worked out, which I always find that's an interesting experience to or process. Yeah.

Deborah Owens: [00:08:02] It's ideally you want it to be a just a dialogue, a conversation. You don't want it to feel like it's this transactional thing. You have to sit there and somebody's telling you you're doing really good or really bad. But one of the things I just wanted to throw out, because I think we don't think about this, but actually when you get really vague, good feedback, it's just as bad as really bad negative feedback. So if I said, Jonathan, you're great, what am I saying to you?

Jonathan Fields: [00:08:35] I don't know what to do with that one either. It's just there's nothing to do about it. It doesn't help me. B, it doesn't help me grow in any meaningful way. Right?

Deborah Owens: [00:08:44] It doesn't help you become greater. Right. And so, you know, I think oftentimes when someone says, hey, that was great, you can easily just say what was great about it. What really resonated with you? What should I be doing more of? Just those little conversations will give you some insight about what's going well.

Jonathan Fields: [00:09:08] Yeah. So I want to get into more detail with you on sort of on both sides of this conversation, as an employee who is showing up and asking for feedback and as somebody who may be a manager or supervisor, leader, boss stepping into this same thing and and wanting to do well, you know, wanting to actually be effective and respectful and all the things I want to get into that. But there's also there's another bit of data that you just shared with me just before we went on. There's a phrase that I hadn't been aware of before that affects this dynamic. This is another sort of meta-level psychology that that goes into this. So before we get a little bit granular on both sides, tell us about this. Because I thought it was really interesting.

Deborah Owens: [00:09:52] Yes. There's a term and it's called protective hesitation. And what that means is you may have a manager who is giving you feedback that is vague, not very clear, not very helpful. And they are doing that because they don't want to say something that would lead to them potentially being labeled a racist, a sexist, somebody who's homophobic, someone who has some kind of bias against a particular group. And so what they do is they take the safe way out. And let's just keep it very general and very vague. But what this means, unfortunately, the outcome of this is that the people who need it most are not getting the feedback that they need to grow, advance, move into leadership positions. And it's really it's really a matter of people not being comfortable having conversations where there may not be full agreement. Right? So you kind of avoid that conversation by just keeping it very neutral. Jonathan, you've done good work since you've been here. Keep doing what you're doing. I think there may be some opportunities for you down the road. So just keep doing what you're doing.

Jonathan Fields: [00:11:15] Yeah, not useful at all.

Deborah Owens: [00:11:17] You don't know what that means.

Jonathan Fields: [00:11:19] And yet guaranteed, a lot of folks listening to this right now have had their version of reviews like that and probably left feeling, oh, great, like I'm on track. No, I'm not losing my job. You're like, if I want a raise, like I'll be like tracking to ask for it. And yet it's it's just not helpful in terms of understanding how do I keep investing in my own betterment, my own growth, not necessarily for the job, but just for me, because as human beings, we like to feel like we're growing.

Deborah Owens: [00:11:46] Because I think everybody comes to work wanting to contribute at their highest level.

Jonathan Fields: [00:11:52] Yeah. So with this, as you're sharing that, also, you know, what occurs to me is that that feeling, that protective hesitation, while it may show up on an individual level in an interpersonal dynamic between two people, that's really a bigger cultural issue within the organization, isn't it?

Deborah Owens: [00:12:12] Yeah. I mean, there are things that if you're a manager, for example, what I would say to people is everybody wants the same thing. They want to be able to grow in their organization. They want feedback that is given to them in a respectful manner that is specific, that is actionable. And sometimes when you're a manager giving feedback, that's really going to help someone, it can be uncomfortable. You may have to point out someone's blind spot, but I think as long as we stay focused on the behaviors, the observed behaviors, the impact, the results, I. Think you're going to be fine. I think it's when we start bringing in our when we start giving performance reviews through the lens of our own experiences, the lens of what we think is okay. Right. So give you an example. I wore my hair, what we call natural. Right. Well, someone may say, Debbie, you've done a great presentation. I think she could be a little more polished. So they know they can't really say anything about my hair. So they put it in there, they slide it in there. And what happens is other people don't know what that means. Some may, but other people don't know what it means. But it begins to change your narrative. Um, so people may look at this, they may not and say, well, she does great presentations, but she needs to be a little more polished. So you start to put a little bit of that subjective. What does more polished mean.

Jonathan Fields: [00:14:04] Yeah. Not realizing that like the person who actually wrote it originally this, this was sort of their code for trying to get past like this one particular thing that they kind of knew that they couldn't say, right. But it's then read by anyone who sees that review in the future as just broadly not polished, which is really not. So you've got this following you in a way that isn't isn't valid.

Deborah Owens: [00:14:28] Right. Or I've had people who've come from Ivy League who have Ivy League degrees, MBAs, professional degrees, and they get in with their manager, and their manager is just like over the moon. Cannot believe how articulate they are and how good their work is. Like this is unbelievable. Well, for some people, that's a little offensive, right? You're an attorney. I come in and I give you a review and I'm like, Jonathan, I'm amazed at how articulate you are.

Jonathan Fields: [00:15:00] Mm. Yeah. Not not not.

Deborah Owens: [00:15:02] That's not.

Jonathan Fields: [00:15:02] A compliment.

Deborah Owens: [00:15:03] That's that's actually one that's very common. People still get that. And it's, it's as if you're saying I'm surprised. Yeah. That you would be this articulate. Ah I'm surprised that you would be this smart. Right. So you can in some cases you see that little bit of bias kind of seeping in there. And so it's really important that we all stick with the facts, if you will, if we focus on the behaviors, if we focus on the impact, if we focus on the results, if we focus on how people approach things and leave some of the color commentary, no pun intended. Um, out of the performance review. And as I was thinking about this topic, Jonathan, I actually remembered an incident that I had that I totally forgotten about, and my manager started it by saying I did a great job, and he gave me a good raise and said if I had more, I would give you more, but I could tell something was bothering him because he had some index cards and he kept looking at the index cards and he seemed uncomfortable. And I was like, well, is there anything else you want to share with me? And so then he proceeded to tell me, you know, that I had taken on a new project and that was a big job. And of course, I had to be very clear and focused and really make things happen. But I think there were people who might have thought, well, this person might have been a little direct, or, you know, why is this person telling me what to do? And so I think in hindsight, he felt very uncomfortable saying this to me or saying, hey, here's some feedback I've, I've received. And so he didn't say anything. And it's something that came up later and I'm like, well, why didn't he just say this to me? Why wouldn't he just tell me this?

Jonathan Fields: [00:17:19] Yeah, I mean, it sounds like he was concerned. He knew that there was something about that that was not okay. Right. Or that so he was in this position of like, do I share what's been passed to me? Right. Because this is what I've been told, or do I actually play the role of filtering this because I don't think it's appropriate.

Deborah Owens: [00:17:38] Right.

Jonathan Fields: [00:17:38] Which puts you in a weird situation.

Deborah Owens: [00:17:40] Absolutely. Because listen, when you go into when you're having any type of performance conversation, the goal is to get information that's going to make you more effective, right? Improve your results. So nobody everybody knows that we all have 1 or 2 things that we can do that would make us even more effective. And depending on a manager, you've got to be comfortable saying to people, hey Jonathan, this was great. Here's where I think you can be more effective. Now, one of the things that's really tough, Jonathan, is when people say, well, I heard you were difficult. That's another one that's very common, particularly for black women. I heard, you know, Gina's great, but, you know, she's very difficult. She's very aggressive. She's very you know, she's a lot. Right. That's very common with black women. And so I think that you have to be really careful about that. So one is and here's sometimes where the bias comes in where others may get the benefit of the doubt. But you may not. You may say, oh, you received this feedback. Well, who did you receive it from? Well, I can't share that with you. Well, can you tell me the scenario? What was it involving? Well, I can't share that with you. Well can you? Is this. Are we talking.

Deborah Owens: [00:19:17] And I think this is an important question. Are we talking about one person? Are we talking about eight people? That's the tricky part because oftentimes managers will come to you with information that they heard from one person, and sometimes that that person is totally irrelevant, may not even have line of sight to your work, and a manager may pass that on. And so it's important for people out there to say, if you ever hear that, well, how many, how many people are we hearing this from? One. Um, if I'm difficult and you can't tell me anything, have you seen me behave in this way? Right? Because if this person is difficult, chances are you've seen it if you're managing them right. Unless they're remote and a whole scenario. So it's really important that yes, you give feedback and yes, you can give feedback from other people, but it needs to be objective and actionable and you really need to be able to assess, are we talking about style? Are we talking about impact. Right. Because sometimes you may want to ask the question. Thank you, Jonathan, from sharing to me that you think my energy is at a very high level. The question is, has my energy level impacted the results that I'm getting?

Jonathan Fields: [00:20:37] Hmm'hmm. Yeah, that's a good one. A good thing to sort of keep in mind and ask. Yeah. I'm curious about something else here also. And it's about that protective hesitation. The scenario you described. Got it. I'm wondering if there's an opposite scenario and if protective hesitation can arise for a different reason. And what I'm thinking about is I know in your work, you work with a lot of professionals of color who are also like, who are managers, who are leaders of organizations. So they're the ones giving them reviews. And I'm wondering whether you've had conversations with clients in your community where a professional of color, who's in a leadership position and management position, who is the person who's giving the review, also experiences that impulse towards protective hesitation, but not for the reason that you offered before, but because they're concerned that if they say a certain thing to, let's say, somebody who they manage, who is in the dominant culture in the organization, that that's going to land the wrong way, and that that is then going to somehow circle back and hurt them.

Deborah Owens: [00:21:48] So the scenario is a professional of color, giving feedback to someone in the majority and hesitancy to give feedback because you don't want it. You don't want any backlash potentially. Yeah.

Jonathan Fields: [00:22:04] Because like you're concerned that it's going to come back in a way that was either misunderstood or not intended, but it's going to yeah, it's going to come back towards you in a negative way when that wasn't what actually happened.

Deborah Owens: [00:22:17] Yes, I think that happens. And I think what happens is the interpretation. So when someone's receiving it. Right. So yeah, that does come into play. Because here's the thing. And this is a this is true. People don't like to talk about it. But I'm going to say it I'm a black woman. Some people don't want to be managed by a black person. I've been in that situation, a version of that situation before, especially, I've had scenarios where the person that they're now giving the review to is the person who thought they should have had that job. So the person believes that you only got that job because you're black or because you're a woman, so it's very hard for them to receive it graciously in some cases. Right? So yes, there are some cases. And I didn't hit all of them, of course. But there are some cases where, yes, you realize that you may have to be delicate because this is someone who will run off and create a whole scenario. And here's kind of the double taxes. As black professionals, you don't often get the benefit of the doubt. So even though this is one person, and even though this person may have a reputation, that still may get traction, whether it should or it shouldn't.

Jonathan Fields: [00:23:40] Yeah. I mean, it's, um, it's a tough scenario. Uh, um, but, you know, it's I keep going back to what you've, you've offered now a number of times in, there are certain things that you can control. There are certain things that you can control. And, and it sounds like sometimes you basically you have to step into this type of experience knowing that and knowing that all you can really do is show up as yourself, show up authentically, show up with integrity, be, be direct, but not, you know, in a harmful way. But be honest. Be direct. Um, be factual and you can't control right how other people, at the end of the day, right, are going to respond to that and just, you know, that's that's uh, you hate to say, you know, like, this is this is the nature of certain workplace dynamics or certain interpersonal dynamics. And if something comes, you know, so basically you have to step into it in a way where your integrity, your factual, you're saying exactly what you need to say. And also being prepared potentially, that if part of what you have to say actually isn't going to be received by somebody, or maybe there's actually negative feedback that you have to give that's real, that's factual based, that's strong, and that's important for the organization, for the team and for the individual to grow. Absolutely. Um, and know that this may or may not be received well and almost anticipate what happens if it's not. And how would I be prepared myself to respond if and when that actually happens?

Deborah Owens: [00:25:14] I think that's going back to that last scenario you shared with me. The same advice applies. Stick with the facts. Yeah, keep it objective. Don't put in any, you know, subjective things. Well, I don't know if this person really wants to be here. You know, all of that kind of stuff. Well, you don't know what that person's thinking, right. But what are the behaviors, right? Is this person never showing up for work? Is this person always late? Is this person never completing anything? But if you stick with the facts, then I think you're going to be okay. And remember, particularly if we're talking about performance reviews, nobody should really be surprised if you have been having conversations throughout the year.

Jonathan Fields: [00:26:02] Right. And that's a huge thing.

Deborah Owens: [00:26:04] I think nobody should be surprised. Right?

Jonathan Fields: [00:26:06] And that's that has become I've actually liked seeing that become a part of the conversation. I've seen a lot more people saying it's really important not just to wait for the annual review, like the the newer management culture is we need to be interactive and dynamic with those around us who are working with in real-time so that there aren't surprises so that people know what's I think the issues come up when there's a big surprise because absolutely something's been building up. Whereas if you've been interacting and sharing feedback and in a factual and objective way along the way, it's not going to be a surprise if that gets reinforced or brought up again in the context of that, I do. Before we want to wrap up, I want to flip the tables also. And for somebody who's actually on the seeking feedback side of this, what are some of the questions that you feel are really important for folks to ask?

Deborah Owens: [00:26:56] I think what it's really important. First, I'll say, I think it's really important that you understand whatever feedback you've been given. Right? And in order to do that, sometimes you may have to ask for more specifics. You may have to ask for. Give me an example. You may say, what did you observe? You may say, if someone says, well, you know, you're I think you could be more effective. What does that look like? Oftentimes people want to know, how do I get a higher rating? Well, what does a higher rating look like? What kinds of things do you need to see? But I think at the end of the day, it's really about making sure that you are crystal clear about what you're doing well, but super clear on. Any things that have been pointed out to you where there's room for improvement, you want to make sure that you are crystal clear on that. And so I say to people, if someone says something that you don't understand, it's kind of like if somebody said, Debbie, you know, you're short. I don't know what to do with that. Right? But I might say, well, how does that impact my ability to do this job? Or I've just talked to so many people and they share with me feedback and I'm like, well, what does that mean? They're like, I don't know. And I think there's a fear there that I don't want to rock the boat.

Deborah Owens: [00:28:20] I don't want to make something worse. And so I think I've said this before, but I'll say it again. And some people don't want to be confrontational. I don't, you know, I don't want to I don't want to be that person in the performance review. But I always say this clarification, not confrontation. Everybody deserves the right to have clarity. So I don't I think most managers are out there doing the best job they can and they're humans too. So sometimes they may say something or write something that's not clear. I don't think it's always intentional. And for those where it isn't, they are going to welcome the opportunity to provide additional clarity because their goal is to see you grow and develop. So I've even said to some people who've had really bad problems, you may have to sit down and say, hey, here's the type of feedback that would be really helpful for me. This will allow me to do x, Y, and Z. And of course you do all the usual align it to the business goals and the goals of your manager so everybody wins. But there's nothing wrong with that. I think a lot of managers would be like, oh thank you. This makes my job easier, right? But I think the biggest thing is ask the questions that you need answers to, not the questions you think you should be asking. Yeah.

Jonathan Fields: [00:29:40] So important if that makes sense. So important. Um, the and I'm just thinking as you're sharing this, you know, if you get to the point where you're getting inexact or information that you really can't use, it's not actionable. Circling back to the beginning of our conversation and you want more useful information, there are kind of two ways to go about it. One is you can get defensive and say like it's almost like, well, prove it. You know, like, show me the show me the example. Like, like like who said that? Show me the example. Like, and that's going to land really badly. But in the exact same scenario, if you phrased it as something which is more like, you know, that's actually really interesting, it's something I wasn't aware of. I would love to use this as an opportunity for me to better understand, so I can grow and improve in this area. Are there any specific examples or experiences that you might be able to share with me so that I could really grow from this? Absolutely. Um, I think it's the same. It's you're seeking the same the same information, but you're saying it with a frame that allows the person giving it to be much more open absolutely to saying what they need to say and actually getting the information that you need because they feel like, you know, it's it's now it's not this adversarial process now. It's a collaborative process.

Deborah Owens: [00:30:50] And it should be a conversation. Yeah, right. And I always say that you really want to have a partnership with your manager and you brought up something really important is sometimes you may hear something that may make you feel some kind of way. Some people might get angry, some people might be frustrated, and you may have a lot of emotion. This is what I sometimes I have to do for myself and I encourage other people to do is remember, you don't have to respond in that moment. If someone says, well, I don't think you're your style. I didn't like the way you did that presentation. You don't have to go, what do you mean, I right? If you're feeling that way and that's the only thing that's going to come out if you open your mouth. Don't say anything. What I've recommended people say is thanks for that feedback, Jonathan. That's the first time I've heard this. I'd love to take a couple of days and process it and circle back with you.

Jonathan Fields: [00:31:46] That's great.

Deborah Owens: [00:31:47] Does that that's not angry. It's just like. Mm. Thank you for the feedback. First time I'm hearing it. Love to take a couple days to process and circle back.

Jonathan Fields: [00:31:56] Yeah. And then maybe that dials down the emotion. But also maybe it lets you dial down internal emotion to ask yourself what I mean. I don't have the specifics yet, but. But still like what about this could be true. Like is there actually is there useful information here that I can really think about so that when you do go back, it's both a less charged conversation and you may be more open because you may start to see like, you know what, maybe there is a little bit of truth in this. Um, but I want now I want to know more so I can really understand what that truth is.

Deborah Owens: [00:32:26] And, you know, I remember that one experience that I've already talked about when they gave me some feedback, I said, you know, it would be helpful if you could give me specific and timely feedback because I want to be able to take corrective action quickly. Right. So if you let people know. Why? I just want to. The reason I'm asking for examples. I just want to understand the behavior because I don't want to, you know, I don't want to keep doing it right. I want to try to fix this situation or resolve it or be more effective in there. And that would really help me not repeat this.

Jonathan Fields: [00:33:01] Yeah, I love that.

Deborah Owens: [00:33:02] Right. So that it's not like I want to fight you. I'm I just want to make sure I'm getting a good handle on this so it doesn't happen again.

Jonathan Fields: [00:33:10] Yeah. And I feel like zooming the lens out on this. Also that to the extent that we can step into these conversations assuming benevolent, constructive intent, I think that just it creates a dynamic that is much more likely to be benevolent and constructive on both sides. So I think the way that we bring ourselves to it is super important.

Deborah Owens: [00:33:32] Absolutely. Be open.

Jonathan Fields: [00:33:34] Yeah, yeah.

Deborah Owens: [00:33:34] 100% be.

Jonathan Fields: [00:33:35] Open. So much value in this. Thank you. And I think as as a lot of folks are in this moment in this season of, um, receiving and seeking feedback and really thinking through, you know, how can I grow and but also what is my future look like? Um, super helpful on both sides. As always, it's great learning from you and to our fabulous community. Great to be with you and we'll see you again here on SPARKED next week. Take care. Hey, so I hope you enjoyed that conversation. Learned a little something about your own quest to come alive and work in life, and maybe feel a little bit less alone along this journey to find and do what sparks you. And remember, if you're at a moment of exploration, looking to find and do or even create work that makes you come more fully alive, that brings more meaning and purpose and joy into your life, take the time to discover your own personal Sparketype for free at sparketype.com. It'll open your eyes to a deeper understanding of yourself and open the door to possibility like never before. And hey, if you're finding value in these conversations, please just take an extra second right now to follow and rate SPARKED in your favorite podcast app. This is so helpful in helping others find the show and growing our community so that we can all come alive in work in life together. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields and this is SPARKED. This episode of SPARKED was produced by executive producers Lindsey Fox and Me, Jonathan Fields. Production and editing by Sarah Harney on this episode.