How to Reframe the Perception of your Career

LinkedIn: [00:00:01] Linkedin presents.

Jonathan Fields: [00:00:10] And today, we're incredibly excited to be sharing a new feature here on the Spark Podcast, Career Transformation Stories. So we're inviting guests to share inspiring stories of their career change from reimagining the work that they're currently doing. So it just feels so much more alive to leaving behind unfulfilling jobs. Careers work to find or create new, more inspired, energized, purposeful, meaningful, and joy filled paths. And we're exploring how they're Sparketype has played a role in this journey. It's all about how we transform work into one of the best parts of our lives. Today's episode, we're digging into a story about listening to that nagging sense that you were meant for something different, something more following that deeper calling, just kind of tugging you to forge a path that truly aligns with your values and allows your unique gifts to shine. Now, a quick note, you'll hear us referencing something called the Sparketypes. This framework reveals the underlying drivers that make you come alive through your work, and knowing yours really provides powerful self-insight to help shape a purposeful career path. You can take a free quiz at sparketype.com to uncover your Sparketype profile. Now our guest today is Doctor Saba Kidwai, an educator, entrepreneur, and leading voice on cultivating the human skills essential for an AI driven world. And from her childhood dreams of designing video games to feeling friction.

Jonathan Fields: [00:01:33] As a high school teacher early in her career, it was a book by Seth Godin that actually inspired her to fully own her career, and Saba eventually landed education technology roles at USC and then Apple. But her biggest career transformation came when she discovered her Sparketype profile, which revealed her primary Sparketype to be the Scientist and the shadow as the sage and anti as the performer, and she took the leap to leave her role at Apple deep in her doctoral research on human eye dynamics, and start her own now thriving consultancy business on AI in education. In today's candid conversation, you'll hear Saba's really profound reflections and revelations on developing self-awareness from an early age, the mindsets required to navigate uncertainty with confidence, and the unpopular stance she advocates around cell phone use for kids. It's an inspiring example of leaning into your curiosities to really create work that is an authentic expression of who you are. So excited to share this with you. I'm Jonathan Fields and this is SPARKED. Hey, and before we dive into today's episode, a quick share. So if you're a coach, a consultant or a leader and you would just love to stand out more in 2024 and beyond with a powerful new credential and a set of results driven superpowers, we have got something for you.

Jonathan Fields: [00:02:57] With nearly a million people now discovering their profiles, the Sparketypes have become a global phenomenon. People want their work to light them up, and oftentimes they would love some help along the way. Which is why we developed our certified Sparketype advisor training as a Certified Advisor. You will discover cutting edge tools that spark profound work life client transformations. Stand out with a highly unique credential and skill set in a crowded market. Find ease and flexibility with templated engagement flows. You'll become a part of a global network of change makers, and you'll rack up 40 ICF continuing education credits. Our fall cohort is enrolling now with visionaries just like you, and we would love to invite you to uplevel your capabilities as a coach or consultant or leader by becoming a certified Sparketype advisor. To learn more about the fall training and see if it's right for you, just click the link in the show notes now or visit sparketype.com. Slash pros So kind of a fun and a curious starting point for me has been I'm curious whether growing up you had a story, a set of expectations about what work is or isn't or should or should be that was in your mind.

Dr. Sabba Quidwai: [00:04:17] Wow. I think yes, absolutely. I think, you know, many of us do. And what I've realized growing up is the people around you really inform that story of what you can be and who you can be. So growing up, my dream was to work actually for Nintendo. I was a really I really enjoyed playing video games, and in my head, I knew exactly the Mario game I wanted to create. You know, traveling different continents was the game I wanted to do. And for the long up until college, up until my first year of looking at major requirements, it was in my head that I wanted to be a video game designer. Like that was it. And I saw the list of requirements and the number of calculus courses, and math was not my thing. And it was like all of a sudden it was like somebody just like, closed that door. And then I was like, okay, like, what next and what next? Wasn't something defined? It was like sort of like a series of just serendipitous events. But yeah, growing up, I wanted to be a video game designer, and I really thought that's what I was going to do.

Jonathan Fields: [00:05:21] Oh, that's amazing to have, sort of like that clarity. I'm so curious. Now, also, when you have a really clear sort of like vision early on, something like that. And also this is a career path which is probably new for sort of like a parent level generation. What were the conversations like that when you would share? Sort of like within the family, like, this is what I want to be.

Dr. Sabba Quidwai: [00:05:42] I feel like I was really lucky in that my dad's an entrepreneur, so my dad wasn't really into school, but he was really into learning. And so it was sort of just like, you know, like any anything I used to sort of ask for, like I would get whether it was like Legos or, you know, they didn't really have a problem with me playing video games. Now that I look back and think about the conversations people have now back in, like, what was this? This was like the late 80s, early 90s. So, you know, very different, sort of like no mobile technology the way kids have today. But at that time, I would say they were very encouraging of anything and everything. I really was fortunate growing up to have like a dad who was like, well, you can do anything. And like he truly believes that it's not just something, you know, somebody says to you like he genuinely, till this day believes we can do anything. We can go to him with anything. And he will be like, okay, great, how are you going to get started?

Jonathan Fields: [00:06:33] That is amazing to have that foundation and to have sort of like the freedom to not feel like you have to fit into some predefined mold of what it is or isn't appropriate for you when it comes to sort of like the work that you think about doing, did you have any sense for that being unusual when you were younger? Because it is.

Dr. Sabba Quidwai: [00:06:49] Yeah. No, I don't I think a lot of things. And again, it's like when you're when you're younger, you only know what you know. So you don't know that well. Wow. This is like something that other five year olds don't have or other 13 year olds don't have. But what I do think happens is when you get older, you also don't know always what to access and how to access it. So I would say like the one gap for me was perhaps like because my dad like was more of like an entrepreneur, like he was a I'm a first gen college student. So like, that wasn't the path he chose. He was like, no, I'm going all business. So I think just some of the nuances of knowing how you navigate a system and how to get somewhere. I would say those pieces were sort of missing that I didn't realize until I was in the moment. And then you also don't realize how sometimes to figure those things out or what your options are as well in doing that. And so I would say that's probably where a little bit of that gap was.

Jonathan Fields: [00:07:42] Mhm.Oh so interesting. So, so when you do decide because it sounds like you did go to school. Yeah. What was that decision about.

Dr. Sabba Quidwai: [00:07:49] It was honestly so serendipitous. So I, I was born in London, and so I moved to the United States when I was ten. And I grew up, like really loving school. Like, that's where my math fell off was because I had a really, really strong foundation. I was I was really good at everything when I came here. Like, learning was just so miserable and just so different than what I was used to. And I was ten years old and I was just completely checked out. I went from being like, I went from like, loving school to just, like, hating school. And I was I did the things I needed to. And so when I was a junior, I was in an AP IB program. I actually found out you could leave high school with an exit exam and you could go to community college. And so I actually went to community college, and I left when I was 16, and I just felt this like sense of agency again, like I would browse the course catalog today the way people probably browse Amazon. But just the idea that I could take anything and everything and I could choose and create my own schedule, really revive that sense of learning. But I was a little lost on my path. And so it was through taking a series of different courses that I ended up landing in. Ashley first landed in counseling, and from that realized being a high school history teacher was like this intersection of different passions and interests, but that ability to help somebody see something within themselves that they can't see. I found a real sweet spot in doing that with high school students.

Jonathan Fields: [00:09:12] Oh that's amazing. So. So you end up teaching history in high school then what was that like? Because especially, you know, when you was this in a public school or a private school.

Dr. Sabba Quidwai: [00:09:22] Yeah, it was a public school. Yeah. 2007.

Jonathan Fields: [00:09:24] Got it. And that's also, I mean, teaching in public school is a teachers, I think, you know, is one of the most potentially magical, most important that a person can do as a vocation. Um, and it also, at least in the US, it exists within a sort of like a bigger ecosystem that a lot of teachers really struggle with. So you see a lot of teachers who are madly passionate about what they want to do. They really want to make a dent in these kids universes. And and I've had plenty of friends who've done this in public school in New York City and other places and and eventually felt like they were really struggling, not so much because of the kids, but because of sort of like the, the, the constraints of the system that they were working within. I'm curious whether you felt that at all.

Dr. Sabba Quidwai: [00:10:05] Oh, absolutely. I mean, I graduated during the recession. And so, again, things that you just don't realize, right, about your career path. Like nobody really talks to you in school about here's what to do if you get laid off or like, you know, these are things that can happen, like no one talks about that. So I graduated in 2007. A couple of months later was the recession. But simultaneously we also had the launch of the iPhone. So like two really big world things that like I just wasn't prepared for that no one had talked about. And I think that's part of the challenge within the education system. I think for many individuals, you go from being in school to where you don't get a lot of exposure to what's happening, like outside of school, and then you go into being a part of that system. And so I think that discrepancy and gap Out between being in a part of something, but also not realizing all the different influences and changes that are taking place around you. Sort of contributes to the like, overarching problem. I think of everything we see today. It's this constant. Like I always say, if you're in school today, it's literally like going back in time and then having to come into the present, like going into the past, coming into the present, going to the past, going into the present. And you can only imagine how toxic that is for your mindset. So I think today when we see struggles not just with educators, but with students as well, it's like we are asking people to live two lifetimes in the same day, back and forth, back and forth.

Jonathan Fields: [00:11:29] Oh, that's such an interesting frame. I never really thought about it that way, but yeah, it makes sense. It's almost like you're, um, code switching, but you're code switching between times. Yeah, yeah. I mean, which places a lot of burden just on, on you to sort of like, sort of like navigate that. So you eventually find your way out of this position. And it's interesting that you brought up Also like that was the year that the iPhone came out, because I'm wondering if that was a little bit of foreshadowing for you.

Dr. Sabba Quidwai: [00:11:55] It wasn't something I realized until looking back. So, you know, in the beginning when you're just like a new grad, like you're just trying to, like, make money and just, you know, get your career off the ground. At that time, I wasn't trying to get philosophical about anything, and I was fortunate in that I was always able to find another position. But it was the same story every year because, you know, if you you don't get tenure until your first day of the third year. And so up until that, you are just another number, like it doesn't matter how great you are, it doesn't matter what you're bringing to the table, you're just another number and you're on the layoff list because you know you're not tenured. And so it was actually like, I think I was almost ready to like switch jobs. And I was looking at marketing and I ended up reading Linchpin by Seth Godin. And one of the things that really struck me in the book was the idea of like, taking ownership over your career and that you don't just have to go and, like, fill in like look through jobs and apply to what's on a job board. You can create a portfolio. You can tell people what problem you solve. You can like almost pitch yourself in that way, which you do in an interview. But it was the framing he gave that would just it changed my life.

Dr. Sabba Quidwai: [00:13:05] And so what I ended up doing was like, I was like, I can solve these problems for you and I can do these things. And a big part of that was integrating technology to kind of make learning more engaging, more relevant, and also increase literacy by giving kids choice. Like, we don't just have to write, kids can record, they can do so many different things and we can build different pathways. And what that did for me was it put me into sort of like the edtech industry. And what I realized through like learning from Seth Godin about the power of a portfolio was once I started sharing my work online, I never applied for a job. After that, I got recruited by USC, I got recruited by Apple, and then when I was at Apple, that's really when I took a step back and I was just like, whoa, like I can't even believe I'm here. I want to go back now and reflect on like, how did this happen? What were the gaps? And like, how do we make sure this doesn't happen to other people, given that we knew I was coming? So 2017, I went back to school to study. You know why? Why do people graduate so unprepared for the world of work? And it's a really good quote I came across from William Gibson and he said, the future is here.

Dr. Sabba Quidwai: [00:14:11] It just isn't evenly distributed. And as I started to go back in time, I was like, wow. Like at a time when I was facing layoffs. And not just me, so many people. Steve Jobs was launching an iPhone. You know that that's the time when like Facebook, YouTube, Twitter, like a lot of technologies we use today were all launched back during that time. So I'm like, how come? Like nobody filled me in on this that was going on over here. And so really and you see today with AI now it's sort of the same story. You have a group of people that really understand changes and the evolving nature of change, and a group of people who are just so isolated that it feels like something just dropped from the sky. And so one of my goals now is really like, how do we close that gap? Because everyone should have at least we always say everyone should have exposure. Not everyone has to go into tech. Not everyone has to, you know, embrace things that they aren't comfortable with. But you should have exposure in an understanding of what is shaping and informing your world, so that you're more empowered to make choices and decisions about not just your career, but like your personal life, your professional life, all areas of your life.

Jonathan Fields: [00:15:15] Yeah, that makes so much sense to me. It's interesting also that you've started a lot of what you've said with the words, how do I or how do we? Which is kind of hints at also, it's a good time to probably bring up your Sparketype, um, you know, because you are from from what I know you're a scientist, sage. So and that is, you know, the scientist's impulse is all about the the impulse to figure things out, like the burning question, like the big problems. I just love to solve it. And the sage is about like, if you learn something, you want to turn around and share it. So powerful conversation or powerful blend for everything that you've been doing. But, you know, like this impulse, also this scientist impulse often is a restless impulse. Yeah. Because, like, you're as soon as you're in a place where you tend to feel even like it's a little even remotely dialed in, or you're not, like, deep in the question again, scientists often start to look around. They're like, there's something bigger or different or more interesting that I want to devote myself to figuring out and to solving. I wonder how much of of that has been a driver for you.

Dr. Sabba Quidwai: [00:16:15] Yeah. And I, I have to really pause here to just say, like, thank you to you for your book because it truly is in those moments. Now, what gives me the confidence to be able to be comfortable with that feeling? Because you know how you were talking earlier about, like, what do you not have growing up? Or like how how do certain things you see shape you? I think the number one narrative for a person like me, or like that, is that you just don't know how to stay in one place. You just don't know how to be committed. You always are jumping from one thing to the next. I would hear that a lot from people like, you know, you really just need to like, like let things play out. You really need to just stay in one place. You really need to just, like, be committed, just see it through. And I had a really hard time with that. I've never had a job for more than three years, and I don't know if some of that has to do with just like the nature of how my career started. But the only reason I stayed at Apple for five years was because two years was the pandemic.

Dr. Sabba Quidwai: [00:17:11] And I remember like when I was making the decision to leave there, I was like, you know, like, are you being ungrateful? It was the number one concern I had in my head. Are you being ungrateful? Like, are you like, overconfident? You know, you're going to go and do this. Are you going to regret this? Like, that's not a position. You just like. It's a really comfortable position. It's not one that you get easily, and it's not one that you give up easily. And I and this goes back to that serendipity. Like I remember I can remember exactly where I was when I heard your interview with Jesse. And I was just like, oh my God, like, I need to read like, this is going to help me. And I got on there and I read the Sparketype and I always say to people, it was like somebody took everything inside my head and put it out of my head in a paragraph. And reading that paragraph gave me the clarity and the confidence to be like, you know what? This is why you are inclined to move in this direction, and it's okay to be that person.

Jonathan Fields: [00:18:09] Yeah, I love that. And by the way, I think you're referencing the conversation I had with Jesse Hempel on her fabulous podcast, Hello Monday back then. And I'm just I'm so glad that the work is is helpful and has been helpful. It is interesting though, but you brought up a really interesting point, which is that so you ended up at Apple for five years. So like on the education executive side of things and and like you said, you landed in a company like that and like this is generally the company, the brand, the job where like everyone wants it, there's prestige, there's status. Usually there's a nice salary and benefits. And then when you're there for five years, you build friendships and relationships and culture. It's so hard to leave a position like that. You know, it's the quote, the old, the old golden handcuffs in a lot of different ways. And oftentimes when you say you want to leave something like that, those around you don't understand it. And they're like, are you sure? Like, how could you do that? Like this. You've worked so hard for this. This is this is the thing that everybody wants and that locks so many of us into staying somewhere, sometimes for years, sometimes even for decades longer than we have any genuine interest in being there just because we're we're almost like, am I just not seeing all of what everybody else is seeing? Um, but it sounds like a voice in you is like, no, like I'm actually seeing myself more clearly than ever, and I need to actually do the next thing.

Dr. Sabba Quidwai: [00:19:35] Yeah. And I think a part of that, you know, really is also the sage SPARKED it like that underlying one as well, because I starting in 2017, I had spent I went back to get my doctorate and my doctorate was really about how to prepare people like, what are the skills and mindsets people will need for the age of AI? And I had done all this amazing research and I had, you know, created this documentary. We had interviewed the teachers and like the parents that were, you know, using these like, like basically they were using design thinking. And this is pre ChatGPT and I think that's so important. Like and that's why I think the power of the Sparketype is so significant because to do have done this after ChatGPT would have made sense, like everything's laid out there. But to have done to have made that move from before was like, now I look back at it and I'm just like, wow. It was like, you know, it was kind of crazy. But having when you have things that give you clarity, it gives you confidence to know what steps to take and what direction in what way. And so I was sitting on all this amazing stuff. But when you're at Apple, you can't kind of like play both sides of the coin, right? Right. I was making a choice.

Jonathan Fields: [00:20:40] You're either you're in or you're out.

Dr. Sabba Quidwai: [00:20:41] Yeah, yeah, you're in or you're out. It's that simple. And so it was like, either this is just going to sit here and collect dust, or you could really go into that problem and start talking about this. And so had I and I and I cannot like honestly, I just can't thank you enough because if I hadn't made that move at that time, I would have been one of those, like I would have been seen as one of those like bandwagon people who did it after. And I honestly would have like, missed the window. What leaving a year and a half earlier did for me was allow me to build a foundation, not just from a business perspective, but also from a brand perspective that has like, I mean, has just, you know, really paid dividends, you know, like after ChatGPT. So yeah.

Jonathan Fields: [00:21:27] I love that. So walk me through what, what you did. So walk me through the process of actually saying, okay, I'm actually going to I'm going to walk away. I'm going to leave Apple. And then. And then what is it that you like in your mind? We're walking into or creating? Yeah.

Dr. Sabba Quidwai: [00:21:45] So the only people who really knew what I was working on were sort of just like my family, close friends and people in school. Just because, like I said, the nature of the work, you can't like, you know, play both. So during the pandemic, my sister was in London and I have a it was our first born nephew, and so she was supposed to be here cutting all that stuff. So I actually spent quite a bit of time with her there working remotely, and she really saw it was probably the first time somebody in my family got a day to day look at my work and what I was doing or what my day to day was like. And we were out at tea one day and she said to me, like, why are you wasting your life away doing this when you've got such amazing work over here? And so I will go back again and say, like, I'm, I'm really lucky to have a family that is supportive in that way of like that, that are not going to be the ones to tell you, oh, you should like not one person in my family, everyone outside of my family thought I was crazy for leaving Apple. Everyone inside of my family was like, finally, you know? So it was just a really different thing. So you also have to remember who are the people that really know you when you take advice and when you're looking for opinions and having conversations about that. So she basically sat me down one day and was like, you're wasting your life away. You know, I have a nephew.

Dr. Sabba Quidwai: [00:22:58] You know, she was like, I have a son. She was like, you know, the world is changing. She's like, I see around me like there's nothing for him. Like school is not doing x, y, z. You have all this stuff you always talk about here. She's like, why are you not doing more with it? And it was sort of like a reality check. And I was there. And so I was like, okay, like I'll build a website, bought the, you know, we changed domain names like it was sort of went from being a blog to turning it into a proper business. And it really was just more like organizing the research. And the research really, interestingly enough, was all about the human skills and mindsets people will need to be successful. Working alongside AI tools like the AI can now do all these things that the research used to say it could do, which it far surpassed what any of the research said it was going to be able to do. What are the things that we're going to need to teach young people to be successful? Because we really messed it up in that 2007 social media iPhone era. Until this day, we can't figure it out. We can't make those same mistakes with AI because, you know, just the impact of people's careers. Having lived that in my own career, you really see firsthand the impact it's going to have on others. And so it just really started with sort of just like I was really lucky there was one district and this is pre ChatGPT.

Dr. Sabba Quidwai: [00:24:06] So major hats off to them. Santa Ana unified and um he he was like I'm all in on this. And he brought me in and we started working together doing design thinking workshops. And because of the foundational work they had done with Design Thinking, they were really well positioned to embrace AI and navigate what came next. So sort of like one of the leading districts now in this area in Orange County, California. And so and so, yeah. So then kind of like one thing led to another. The one thing that I do think is really important when you do have that mindset and you kind of want to solve these problems and want to do these things that no one teaches you is balancing. Okay? What are the things I need to do to be able to do these things? So one of them for me was like, okay, like, let me buy a house before I make this move. Let me make sure, like, what are the financial things maybe you need to have set up? These are sometimes, I think too often people make it seem like it's a binary choice. You can either do this or you can do this. And what I've really learned is once you know what this is for you, you can figure out the logistical things that need to happen, not just the building of a website and things like that. But if I'm going to start a business, what are the other things I might need to consider to be to be able to comfortably live in sort of this space?

Jonathan Fields: [00:25:18] Yeah, it's I'm so glad you brought that up. It's so important. You know, so often we feel like, you know, we're we're making all of our decisions about our careers in service of the career. But like, the truth is, you know, like, everything we do for work is also in service of the more broadly how we want to live our lives like how we want to step into the world and contribute to it. And also just what we need back from our work in the larger context of our lives. And you're right, we often we. So don't think about those choices, especially when we're making big moves, you know? And sometimes it even makes sense to take your time with the big move to sort of like, like really figure it out, like what matters to me? Who am my bigger picture in my life, you know, like, what is that vision? And then how do I work this sort of like, work piece of it into a way, in a way that feels good, that feels like, okay, so this aligns with my values and with what I'm what I'm looking to create in the world. So I'm so glad that you brought that up. So what does work for you look like now?

Dr. Sabba Quidwai: [00:26:16] Yeah, it's it's so authentic. You know, I always say like in this scenario, you would imagine somebody to feel more stressed. But even though the stress should be more, it doesn't feel that way at all. It's very hard to describe. I was way more stressed getting a stable paycheck working at Apple than I than I am now. And I think that alignment of work with your values is something that's just going to become so important for everyone. In a world where you're not only going to have AI tools that do a lot of things that, you know, we're used to doing, but also in making choices about where to zone in on, because that area that you zone in on, when you are super aligned with your values, is one of the most, I think, uniquely human elements of what we bring, not just to work, but to the world and to people around us. You know, personal and professional. And so I think that's a really yeah, I'm just really surprised that I'm not as stressed anymore as I used to be. And I think a big part of that is the friction is gone. I think aligning your work in that way, it's one of the reasons why I was sharing with you that in every single workshop we do with people, the number one thing, it's part of my every keynote, it's part of every message I have, is take your Sparketype because until you don't get the self-awareness and language to talk back to yourself, when you're in those moments of friction, you truly cannot take steps forward. Like when you hear people talk about how conflicted they are, you don't have language to talk to yourself. And that's really what I think the Sparketype did for me was the first step in giving me language to speak to myself when I was experiencing friction, insecurity, moments of am I doing the right thing? It's calming for you to have language that you can use with yourself.

Jonathan Fields: [00:28:06] Mhm. No, I love that. Thank you for sharing that. And it's one of the things that we've heard about the body of work over time is in part, it's great to have language to share with other people, to sort of explain this is who I am. But also we discount like oftentimes we don't really have the language to explain ourselves to ourselves. And I think that's one of the things we've heard consistently. So I'm glad it landed that way with you as well. Um, looking back at this trajectory. So now, like, you have your own business now you're thriving. You are ahead of the curve in this thing that has exploded now. Um, I love that you also shared like, okay, so they're in theory, the entrepreneurial life is much more stressful than the paycheck life. But the reality is, when you have this internal friction, when every day you know that you're sort of like, you're not doing this thing that honors what's inside of you and, and is yearning to get out. Um, that creates its own stress. And we often discount that. And when you're an entrepreneur, sure, there's all sorts of stuff that's outside of your control. But when you when you build something as an entrepreneur that actually you have the opportunity to build something that is well aligned with who you are and all the things that matter to you, it's a different kind of stress that you experience, like because you're buffered, I feel like there's a certain sort of like, you know, you have the strength of knowing. Yeah, but this is kind of what I'm here to do. So I can I'm okay with like whatever comes my way. It doesn't necessarily mean it's easy, but there's a different sort of like inner strength that I think we tend to be able to draw from. When you look back at the sweep of the last decade or so and all the changes that you made. Is there anything that jumps out at you as something where you're like, oh, I would have definitely done that differently.

Dr. Sabba Quidwai: [00:29:44] Yeah, absolutely. And I think that right now is one of the foundations of a really unpopular opinion. And that is I don't think cell phones should be banned for kids, because I think a lot of the friction that we experience and those moments that we experience come because most of us are watching everybody else build similar things or build similar lives, or we see way too many aspirational things around us that we either might not be ready for that. We either just don't know how to get to because nobody taught you. And the insecurity, I think that that can build inside of you of I'm not good enough. Somebody else is doing it. Why would anybody care to hear from me is, I think, one of the most detrimental aspects of sort of just like the environment of that you're in not only as an individual, but probably even more so as like, I feel like even when you say the word entrepreneur, there's people like like my dad, for example, like who have like more like brick and mortar style businesses. Then you have people who just are apples of the world, like full fledged companies, but then you have people who are individuals like me who are figuring things out. We're on our way. We don't know if we're going here or there and whatnot. And I think when you're in that space of trying to figure things out, when you have too many things coming at you with no mechanism and habits and mindsets of what to do with this information that's coming at you, whether you asked for it or not is a really, really, really. I think it's one of the biggest struggles people have in general, no matter what level of their career they're at. And so I really wish that like looking back, more people had talked about building that self-confidence. It's again, I just say this like a, like a broken record, but it's one of the reasons why I emphasize the Sparketype and taking it as a first step so much in my talks with schools.

Dr. Sabba Quidwai: [00:31:28] Especially.With students. If you do not get the language to talk back to yourself in those moments. That to me is the root of the mental health crisis. We don't have language. We don't know ourselves, and we don't have language to talk about ourselves to explain ourselves. Therefore, other people don't know ourselves and we live in this toxic environment of assumptions and on so many different layers. And so looking back, I really wish more people had spent more time around mindset with me. Like that to me is the that was the game changer. Like, you have to snap out of moments when that's when you start going down that train of thought and it's so natural. There's nobody who's immune to it at any level. And so that's the one thing I always say. Looking back, I wish more people had taught me while I was doing work, even back in when I was in graduate school, just even as far back as 2017. You're doing this. What are the habits and mindsets of work in today's world? Because I just I see it as a problem everywhere.

Jonathan Fields: [00:32:24] Yeah, it's so interesting and I so agree with that. Probably not surprisingly. You know, I feel like especially for people who are in some way compelled to live in the question, to live in the space of the unknown, whether we we, we do it because we want to. It's just part of who we are. Or turns out, we're living in a world which is wildly uncertain these days. You know, so like, we're all going to be there, whether it's voluntarily or we sort of get hurled into that space and we don't like. There's so much focus and education on domain expertise like here is like on math. And not to say those things aren't important for people who are really drawn to them and will use them, but developing skills of mind, it's just not a part of the standard curriculum. And often actually times it's even eyes are rolled when you bring up things like this. Like you have to fight to try and show why this matters, why it's important. So I'm so glad that you brought that up. It's, you know, certainly something I believe strongly in as well. So as we come full circle in this conversation, I'm curious, is there anything maybe jump to your mind as words of wisdom for our community.

Dr. Sabba Quidwai: [00:33:29] I think one thing, maybe like along the Sparketype that I think can happen for you at any age is knowing the medium you communicate in best. I think that's one of the other elements that I think really holds people back. Like, even if you were to sort of understand things about yourself and know things about yourself, if you are somebody who through school was taught that writing is the only way to learn or to do something, there are so many parts of you that could be missed, and so many ideas and so many contributions from yourself that could be missed simply because you didn't know how to write that sentence. But you could have picked up a phone and recorded a video in 10s and put that out there. And I think people really leaning into at any age, I feel like for me, I discovered this in my 30s, was that writing is not my thing, it just is not my thing. But video is and speaking is and recording is. But when somebody is always trying to fit you into a box Just if you can't fit in that box, you're going to spend your whole life feeling insecure, insignificant, and as if you don't have something to contribute. And I just, I harp on this all the time, but I just feel like in an AI world, knowing what you contribute is what is going to give you the confidence to navigate uncertainty and to still have confidence in the value you bring to the table. Um, and so I think just no matter what age it is, if you see something in somebody else, I think being able to help bring that to the surface is one of the greatest gifts we can give each other these days. Mm.

Jonathan Fields: [00:34:56] Thank you so much. And if you'd like to share your career transformation story on the SPARKED podcast, to inspire others to maybe feel less stuck or unsure about their own career paths, we encourage you to apply to be a guest and check out the form in the show notes, because we believe that everyone deserves to find fulfillment and purpose in their work. And remember, if you're at a moment of exploration, looking to find and do or even create work that makes you come more fully alive, that brings more meaning and purpose and joy into your life. Take the time to discover your own personal Sparketype for free at sparketype.com. It will open your eyes to a deeper understanding of yourself and open the door to possibility like never before. And hey, if you're finding value in these conversations, please just take an extra second right now to follow and rate SPARKED in your favorite podcast app. This is so helpful in helping others find the show and growing our community so that we can all come alive and work in life together. This episode of SPARKED was produced by executive producers Lindsey Fox and me, Jonathan Fields.. Production and editing by Sarah Harney. Special thanks to Shelley Adelle for her research on this episode. Until next time. I'm Jonathan Fields and this is SPARKED.