How to Reimagine Inclusion

LinkedIn (00:00:38) - LinkedIn presents.

Jonathan Fields (00:00:50) - So we all want to work in places where everyone feels included, valued, embraced, and maybe even celebrated. But what if good intentions really aren't enough to build a truly inclusive culture? We know equity and belonging matter, but systems and people all too often seem stuck in paradigms that exclude and often caused harm. So how do we implement real change? Well, in this episode, we tackle some of the big inclusion myths that prevent real change and reveal what it takes to create actual progress.

Jonathan Fields (00:01:22) - And today we're joined by special guest Mita Malik, sharing insights and practical steps that we can take to tackle inclusion in a more effective and realistic way. Meta is a corporate changemaker with a track record of truly transforming businesses and cultures. She is the head of inclusion, Equity and Impact at Carta. She is a regular contributor for entrepreneur and her writing has been published in Harvard Business Review, The New York Post, cosmopolitan, Business Insider, among many others. She is a co-host of the Roundtable Talks podcast and author of the new book Reimagine Inclusion, which debunks 13 myths that hold us back from transforming our workplaces and media, delivers powerful storytelling combined with practical and hands on ways for us to be more inclusive leaders together. In this conversation, we explore a wide variety of the myths and what we can do about them. We talk about things like how to move from magical thinking to courageous action. What will it take to shift from bystanders to allies? Can we lead what we don't understand, and what will it take to replace trauma tourism with actual empowerment? Discover everyday allyship the business imperative for equity, and how to transform your intent into impact.

Jonathan Fields (00:02:41) - We promise some really interesting insights and paradigm shifts to challenge assumptions and practical steps to not just inspire you, but guide you in action. Together, we can reimagine inclusion. So excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields and this is SPARKED. Hey, before we dive into today's show, you know, we've learned that a lot of our listeners are sort of at this moment where they're really exploring the notion of work in their lives and their next moves in their careers. And if you are in that place, we talk about the spark and the sparketypes a lot on this show, this body of work that we've developed to help you really identify what makes you come alive and how to apply that to the world of work. We've heard from a lot of folks that they would also love some help along that journey. If you're curious, you can also find on our website a directory of Certified Sparketype Advisors who know this body of work and can really help coach and guide you through it.

Jonathan Fields (00:03:42) - So we'll drop a link to the show notes in that right now. And if it feels interesting to you and you just like somebody to help guide you through this next part of your career or work journey, take a look and see if somebody resonates. It might be the perfect fit to help you along this next leg of your journey. Again, that link is in the show notes now.

Jonathan Fields (00:04:41) - Just excited to dive in. You know, as we're having this conversation. It is such an interesting moment in culture. And we've been through the last three years.

Jonathan Fields (00:04:50) - We've been through a generation of change before that. But I feel like the last three years has been almost like a cauldron that's accelerated and amplified so much. And also it's led to a lot of fraying around the edges and also revealing of a lot of things that have been current in culture, current in business, current in the world of work for generations. Yet nobody really talked about, nobody really addressed. And now it's surfaced a lot. And as it surfaces, a lot of people are thinking themselves, what do I do with this? So you're offering sort of like into that curiosity and also confusion ecosystem, a book reimagining conclusion that has some just fantastic insights and ideas and prompts and questions to ask. And I thought it was fascinating that you chose as an organizing structure for the book myths. Yes. You know, like 13 myths that were sort of like, these are things that I see all the time. I was curious about that decision because as a fellow author, there are so many different ways that you could structure something like this.

Jonathan Fields (00:05:50) - I'm curious, what led you to say like, this is actually, this is the way that I want to center this conversation.

Mita Mallick (00:05:56) - That's a great question. There's a lot of great books on leadership, diversity, equity and inclusion out. And I wanted to think about how could I approach this topic differently. And like I keep saying, say the quiet parts out loud. And so I have children who are eight and ten. And as often I've read to them bedtime stories, and I think about the stories we tell ourselves at work that aren't always true, that we hold on to those myths. And so I thought, let me think about a different way to reach the reader and the audience. And 13, because it's my lucky number. So that's really the science behind 13. But I went back through many career journals I had kept over the course of my career. I process through writing. I had written down highs and lows and things that I was struggling with, and I went back and thought about, what are the things that I've heard the most often in my career and in doing this work.

Mita Mallick (00:06:48) - And that's what I captured in the book.

Jonathan Fields (00:06:50) - Yeah, I love that time that you have also just sort of like kids as you, as you're just sharing that and this instant flashback. We have a daughter who's now in her 20s, but it brought me back to a moment where she was probably 3 or 4, and every night I would go and like, grab a book and read a story to her to bed. And I got really frustrated because I kept noticing that so many of the stories were about the prince coming in and saving the day, saving the orphan, saving the princess. And so I actually started writing, sort of like reversal stories to tell her where there's like just an empowered young girl who comes and actually saves, often the hapless young boy. Right? I love that. And so much of this shows up like in the earliest times, but then it really manifests and causes pain as we grow into adulthood and then enter the work world. You're so interesting. You kick off with with one myth where you effectively start the book by saying, let me invite leaders to reflect on the diversity or lack of diversity of their social circles.

Jonathan Fields (00:07:50) - Yes, and tell me more about why that was such an important opening move for you.

Mita Mallick (00:07:56) - I fundamentally believe in many ways we're doing this work backwards. One of the statistics I include in reimagining, inclusion and guess what? The book is out and it's already out of date. That's how it works. And $8 billion spent on diversity, equity and inclusion in the US alone just a year and a half, two years ago. I'm sure that number has changed. And so we are chasing inclusion at our conference room tables, at our boardroom tables. And guess what? It starts at home. It starts at our kitchen tables. It starts in our communities, our neighborhoods, our towns. Because here's the thing. The reality is, and I do an exercise in reimagine inclusion, as you know, that most of us are self segregating in this country, two thirds of white Americans and two thirds of black Americans, similar numbers. And so the question is, if I'm self segregating and I don't have access to lived experiences that aren't my own, and then all of a sudden I'm at work and I'm asked to lead a diverse team, be an inclusive leader.

Mita Mallick (00:08:54) - The question you should ask is not about yes, meta has diversity of representation on the team she is leading. Is she fit to lead it? Because if all she has, other than an understanding of lived experiences of others, is stereotypes that she's either formed from the one time she's met that one Indian person, or film or movie and TV, and I'm not saying film, movie and TV and all this amazing content isn't an important way to educate yourself, but it can't be the only way. We need human connection. And so that's what I find so startling, is that if more of us were building intentional cross-cultural relationships outside of work, imagine the impact we would have when we showed up at work, and if we actually were intentionally doing that in our workplaces as well.

Jonathan Fields (00:09:40) - Yeah, I. I mean, that makes so much sense to me. It's interesting you bring up sort of the way the entertainment plays into that, because I feel like oftentimes, rather than trying to get in the production side of things, well, hey, let's get as close to the truth as we can.

Jonathan Fields (00:09:55) - It's often it goes to either two extremes. It's either deepening into a stereotype or it's pandering. And and that becomes so much of the message that we get. So relying on that and then thinking that that in some way is a realistic representation, I feel like almost can really take us off course.

Mita Mallick (00:10:13) - Yes it can. Absolutely.

Jonathan Fields (00:10:15) - Yeah. So I'll ask the big question here then, for somebody who's listening to this right now and they're thinking, huh, let me do a quick inventory. How many people of color am I just friends with? And they're coming up really short on the number, because you do a lot of work around this. When people come back to you and they share this with you and they're like, I just realized this, you know, like there are no people or there was one person or two people and I really had to stretch for this. What do you tell them at that point is really the next step from there.

Mita Mallick (00:10:47) - So be intentional about building more cross-cultural relationships, just like you would in friendships.

Mita Mallick (00:10:52) - Like think of the best friendships you have. Consistency, thought, showing up in moments that matter, being vulnerable, sharing experiences together. And so how does that start? I once worked with a leader who identified as white, who was in the state of Vermont. And if you're listening and you're in the US, you may know that Vermont is one of the way to states. And so he sort of exploded on me. What do you want me to do? Move? It was to move. And I'm like, okay, we just had this global pandemic that we came out of lockdown. We have built so many incredible relationships over social media in our remote world of work. And so you can do that with intention. You can reach out to people in your network, people who you've met at conferences, people who you want to get to know better. You can do that at work through employee resource groups. You can also do it in your personal life. If you can afford to travel, think about the locations you're going to.

Mita Mallick (00:11:47) - If you can actually travel out of town and maybe volunteer at a different place of worship than you normally would outside of town, you can support founders of color and go to their businesses and become a repeat customer. Reach out to them and say you like the product. Create. There's so many ways, right? And people were like, well, okay, so like what's the what's an example of a really great relationship you have with someone a friendship and like what's the recipe for that? That's really what it is. And that's how you avoid creating tokenistic relationships. Right? You know, you only call me when something happens to the Asian community and you want to understand what you should say at work. But but that was like the one time you've ever reached out to me, right. And so then that can be very tokenistic. And so that's what I would ask people to think about. It's possible you have to do it with intention.

Jonathan Fields (00:12:37) - Yeah. And you know, as you shared in the beginning of a conversation, if two thirds of white folks, two thirds of black folks, I don't know what the demo is across different people of color, but if they're self segregating, then it will take some intentionality to actually do this.

Jonathan Fields (00:12:55) - But I love the fact that, you know, one of the things that I feel like a lot of people feel like the pandemic has taken a lot away from us, but by flattening the world through technology, yes, I feel like it has. So if you live in a geographic area where everyone looks like you and believes like you and speaks like you and dresses like you, that's no longer an excuse. Yes, exactly. You know, it never really was. But now it really, really, really isn't.

Mita Mallick (00:13:19) - It isn't now it isn't at all.

Jonathan Fields (00:13:20) - Absolutely no. I love that one of the myths that you center soon after this is, and I can't imagine this coming up so many times when you're consulting with teams and leaders is this notion of, well, I always allow people to speak in meetings. Of course, I've got to be an inclusive leader because, you know, I give permission for everyone to share their voice and you say like it's you position that as a myth. So take me into this.

Mita Mallick (00:13:48) - So you can say that you let everyone speak in meetings. But that's just the start. So many times in my career, Jonathan, I've been given a seat at the table, but my voice didn't matter. So you can have everyone go around and speak, you can have ideas shut down. You can dismiss what people say. You can interrupt. You can have ideas stolen. You can also not value. And listen. I have been raised in a corporate America that really still values the extroverted leader. And so if you are somebody like myself who is a more quiet, introverted leader, I like the time to have things ahead of time to process, to read, to be prepared, to ask questions. I'm not the person in my career who's always raised my hand, who was always like this and has the perspective, and that's the beauty of having a team that has a diversity of styles, and our job as leaders is to unlock that. And to think about the ways in which we can unlock ideas from people and get and get the best out of them and help them reach their potential.

Mita Mallick (00:14:48) - But it's just so interesting to me that people think, okay, well, everyone got to speak, so I'm inclusive, you know? I think the hardest job a leader had is has, is to hear things you don't agree with, right. Here are things you don't agree with. And I think many of us struggle with that.

Jonathan Fields (00:15:03) - Yeah. And I feel like also and tell me if you notice this distinction, there's a difference between quote permission to speak and then actually hearing what people speak. Yes. They're not the same thing.

Mita Mallick (00:15:15) - They're not the same thing. And too often I've had to train myself even in this conversation. Am I listening to you or I'm just waiting for my turn to speak? Am I listening to what you're saying and how you're responding to what I'm saying? Or am I just like three steps ahead and like, he's going to finish? And then I'll say this, I'm going to ask that. I'm just like, there's like, there's no, we're not listening to each other.

Mita Mallick (00:15:36) - We're not hearing each other. We're just waiting for our turn to speak. It's like two ships passing in a night instantly.

Jonathan Fields (00:15:43) - And I feel like that is I wonder if that's a natural instinct or a trained instinct. Like, I wonder what's underneath that, because I think it's such a common experience, you know? And it's not just about what happens around a boardroom or with a teacher. This is this is like throughout life for so many people. We're sort of like, I wonder if it's because we want to be seen as having something to offer. So, you know, we're we're busy formulating something that we hope and think will be valuable to offer out to the group, to the other person. So we kind of like check that box rather than just saying, you know what? My value could actually be listening deeply and really receiving that and then reflecting what I think about what was just said. But I can't do that unless I'm actually present in the first place.

Mita Mallick (00:16:31) - I love what you just said and many of us have been trained.

Mita Mallick (00:16:37) - Like I say, I was born into a world that just never shuts up. So as leaders were taught to talk, talk, talk, take up space, own space, have all the solutions, ideas and I hope that more leaders see the value in listening. I don't think enough workplaces value that. And so we're all struggling for airtime.

Jonathan Fields (00:16:58) - And I think, as you mentioned earlier, so much of not just the workplace ideal, but the popular cultural ideal is built around extraversion that that becomes the expectation. And it's almost like we're all that impulse to just start formulating. We're going to say next is because if the expectation is I always have to contribute something in order to, quote, get ahead or get credit, you're always trying to formulate the next thing that's coming out of your mouth. And I guess part of the leader's job is to reset that expectation. It is.

Mita Mallick (00:17:30) - It is.

Jonathan Fields (00:17:30) - Yeah, absolutely.

Jonathan Fields (00:17:32) - And then not just say it but model it, you know, because this is it's like a kid like it doesn't matter what your parent says.

Jonathan Fields (00:17:40) - They're going to watch your behavior.

Mita Mallick (00:17:42) - Have to watch the behavior. That's where the the proof will be.

Jonathan Fields (00:17:45) - Yeah.

Jonathan Fields (00:17:45) - No that's where the proof will be. It makes so much sense.

Jonathan Fields (00:17:47) - Susan Kearns, an old friend of mine who.

Jonathan Fields (00:17:49) - Yeah.

Mita Mallick (00:17:50) - Oh, I love, I love.

Jonathan Fields (00:17:51) - Was going to say yes.

Mita Mallick (00:17:52) - Yes, yes, yes, I was going to bring that.

Jonathan Fields (00:17:54) - Right. And it sounds like you and.

Jonathan Fields (00:17:55) - I are wired similarly. I'm much more introverted. And I generally in a group of people, I'll say quietly until the end, until I've taken it all in and I feel like there's something of value to say. And if there's not, I just won't say anything. That book made me feel like I wasn't broken and it was so powerful, I think for so many people.

Jonathan Fields (00:18:13) - Yes, yes.

Jonathan Fields (00:18:17) - So there. I want to just touch on a couple of different myths here, because these are things that I think must just come up all the time. Yes. And this is the third one, actually, that you tee up in the book kind of going down the chain, but we'll bounce around a little after.

Jonathan Fields (00:18:29) - This is something that friends of mine who are people of color, have shared with me a number of times over the last few years in particular, which is, hey, it's time to have some courageous conversations on race. Let's ask the employees of color to lead them. And my friends have been put in that position so many times. So, so take me into this experience.

Mita Mallick (00:18:50) - Another tragedy unfolds where right now, in the middle of tragedy in our world and what's happening in the crisis that's unfolding the war, Israel and Gaza. And.

Mita Mallick (00:19:04) - Oof!

Mita Mallick (00:19:06) - So many communities are in pain right now, and when those communities are in pain, is it their job to put their pain on display and educate us? So if there's another anti-Asian hate crime, do we gather the Asian ERG and ask them to talk to us about how painful it is to be targeted because you're Asian right now and how your safety feels at risk? I mean, this is very much what our Jewish, Palestinian, Muslim, Israeli colleagues are feeling right now.

Mita Mallick (00:19:37) - And so it's okay. But what is my job as someone who's on a journey to be an ally for any of these communities to do, to educate. And too often, Jonathan, what I see corporations do and I talk vulnerably about this in the book because I have been guilty about this. And part of it is that let's gather our employee resource group. Like, rather than figuring out what we should do, let's put paint on display. Let's put paint on display. And I think part of it is connected to one of the oldest ways humans communicate is through storytelling. And I love storytelling, and it's very powerful. But you have to ask yourself, at what cost do I want someone to be the primary source of my education? And for them to share a story with me, or for me to ask them what they think about what is happening right now to this community that's being hurt and harmed, not realizing that they are then having to re-experience trauma and intergenerational trauma that's been passed down. And so unless you have really strong cross-cultural relationships, if you go up to me, this may be the only Asian person in the office and you're like, oh, did you see that? Gosh, I can't believe that.

Mita Mallick (00:20:44) - Other anti-Asian hate crime, the woman who was shoved off the subway, can you believe it? Like, what do you think about that? And so that might sound innocent, but like like what has occurred is devastating. And for me to have to explain that again of like how I feel. And so that's what I think goes back to intent and impact, which I talk a lot about in Reimagine Inclusion, too. But I would ask people to think about, at what cost do you want to be educated, that you have to go to a primary source and ask them to relive their trauma, if you don't have well-established relationships with them?

Jonathan Fields (00:21:19) - Yeah. I mean, it's so I would imagine even the act of asking that person, is this okay for me to ask you, or is it okay for me to ask you to lead that conversation, even that question, especially if you don't have a genuine relationship with them beforehand. That alone, especially if there's a power differential.

Jonathan Fields (00:21:38) - Absolutely can.

Jonathan Fields (00:21:39) - Be that.

Jonathan Fields (00:21:40) - Part right there can.

Jonathan Fields (00:21:40) - Cause harm because they're going to feel like, oh, I actually have to do this. This is not a question. It's just being offered as a question. But, you know, my my job is on the line. My ability to progress is online. And that, again, it puts them in a position where they feel uncomfortable, they feel disrespected and potentially retraumatized and then having to exert more energy than anyone around them to actually dig down and do what's being asked of them is interesting, as you're describing that. Another. I remember a conversation with a friend where she was telling me that her experience at one point with this wasn't that she was asked to facilitate the conversation, but she was a part of a group where this conversation was happening. Like, this is a conversation about race. We're all in the room together. She is the one black woman in the room, sort of like unofficially. Every time a question comes up, all heads start to turn to her.

Jonathan Fields (00:22:32) - So she's sort of like, unofficially, quote, deputized to be the person, even though there was never any conversation about like, is this okay?

Mita Mallick (00:22:41) - It reminds me of just the definition of courageous conversations on race and leaving people with this thought. If you've never had a courageous conversation on race, then just acknowledge you have some level of privilege in that. I'm not saying you haven't had to have courageous conversations on other topics, but what I am saying is someone who was born and raised here, proud daughter of Indian immigrant parents. I've been having courageous conversations on race my entire life hasn't been a choice. And so. And then who is the equation of courage? We should both be showing up with courage for that conversation. But again, as we talked about when we're putting employees of color. Intentionally, unintentionally on display. Who was being courageous?

Jonathan Fields (00:23:24) - Yeah, in that moment.

Jonathan Fields (00:23:26) - And you really just have to, I think, step back and really just inquire into yourself and into the culture and the circumstance at the moment.

Jonathan Fields (00:23:33) - One of the other myths that you bring up a little bit further into the book, I think it's myth number seven, is this myth of like, we need more people of color in leadership. Let's launch a, quote, mentorship program. Not necessarily the path you'd recommend.

Mita Mallick (00:23:48) - Yes. No. I will boldly, unapologetically keep saying that I have been over mentored and under sponsored in my career. I'll say that again over mentored and under sponsored career.

Jonathan Fields (00:23:58) - So let's tease out the distinction.

Mita Mallick (00:23:59) - Yes, because people will come out, come after me and say, oh, mentorship is important. And I'm like, I'm not saying mentorship is not important. I wouldn't be here on this podcast with you. Like, I wouldn't have been invited if I didn't have amazing mentors who've supported me. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying there's a difference between mentorship and sponsorship. After this conversation, we might become mentors for each other and keep in touch. Right? But you're not going to be my sponsor. And why is that? Unless you work.

Mita Mallick (00:24:25) - Typically in my career, it's been two levels above me. In an organization, you have big PNL, big budget, big team, political capital, social capital, and you are in the room when the doors are closed and decisions are being made about me and my career. And so typically one would think, well, isn't that the job of job of a boss? Isn't the boss the career sponsor advancing your career? And I would say yes and no, because sometimes I've had really great bosses. Sometimes I've had really not so great bosses. And so my career advice is you can't always tie your fortunes to one person, that one boss. But you have to think about who else is going to help you advance your career based on the merit of the work. And so what I will offer people will say, well, how do you find a sponsor? How does this work? Right. And if you're in a large company and I was your chief diversity officer, many companies are helping orchestrate these pairs like Jonathan is going to sponsor me to and like why? And we're thinking about that.

Mita Mallick (00:25:20) - And it's not a Taylor Swift concert where we're giving out friendship bracelets, where I go uptown. Will you be my sponsor? No. Typically it's an example like this I include in Reimagine Inclusion. I'm a senior marketing manager. My boss has said, look at the media investments that were made in the last year. I want to understand where the investments went, how they did and like what what are we going to recommend for next year? So in my life, my parents gave me a lot of great advice. My dad, rest in peace would always say, keep your head down, work hard and you'll be recognized. And lovely advice. But that doesn't work in corporate America. And so I always look down and not up. And so in that situation, you have that project, find someone else who would be interested in that project. You know, who else is going to be interested in that? Anyone who sits in the Cfo's office. So go meet with them on the merit of work.

Mita Mallick (00:26:10) - Maybe it's the VP of finance, maybe it's Jonathan. I'm not going to go get Jonathan. I'm not going to go get coffee with Jonathan to say, tell me about your career. I'm going to say, hey, I have this proposal I want to share with you. Would love your advice and guidance. You're going to give me some questions. I'm going to come back in a few weeks. Then you're going to say, can you present at my team meeting next week like this is really interesting. Then you're going to share it with another colleague in another division. Okay. So what am I doing? We're co-chairing and owning the work. And so when the doors are closed and I'm up for promotion, Jonathan's likely going to be like I back meet his promotion. Here are the things I've seen.

Jonathan Fields (00:26:41) - Yeah I mean that makes so much worse. It's really a two way street. It is. You know, you've got to find the person who's willing to invest that level of energy and you. But you've got to show up.

Jonathan Fields (00:26:50) - You have not just say, hey, can you invest in me but also invest in them. Show like what? Your show that there's a reciprocity there that and that. You also want to show them who you are.

Jonathan Fields (00:27:02) - And the value.

Jonathan Fields (00:27:02) - That you have and that you're willing to work and all these different. Yes, all these different things. It's interesting. Are you seeing because you're much more tethered to sort of like larger organizations than I am? Are you seeing organized structure around sponsorship versus mentorship appearing more and more, or is this still a rare thing I'm seeing?

Mita Mallick (00:27:22) - I'm seeing more and more coming up because I think people are realizing that it is not mentorship, but sponsorship that is lacking in organizations. One former CEO famously went around his executive team and said, I want to know who you're sponsoring. And when he realized they're all sponsoring people who look like them and act like them, mostly white men sponsoring other white men. And he said, this is part of your performance review. I'm going to hold you accountable.

Mita Mallick (00:27:47) - You find two people you're going to sponsor in the organization who have different lived experiences, identify in a different way than you do. And I want I'm going to hold you accountable, right. This is part of how I'm going to compensate you.

Jonathan Fields (00:28:01) - Yeah. Imagine if that was a codified element.

Jonathan Fields (00:28:04) - Yes. Amazing.

Jonathan Fields (00:28:05) - Rising up into leadership like this is part of the responsibility that you're assuming. It'd be so powerful, transformative. I would imagine a lot of different ways I want to sneak in a final myth. It's actually the last one, myth 13. And it's because it's so relevant to to right now. It's this work that we can work from home. Now. The future of work is just inherently inclusive. Not true.

Mita Mallick (00:28:26) - Not true at all. You know why? Because we all fell into this. Some people predicted the pandemic. I wasn't one of them. Many people, corporations. We fell into this way of working, and we haven't really thought about what it looks like to have a hybrid, inclusive workforce the technology, the processes, the way in which we collaborate, learn, teach all of that.

Mita Mallick (00:28:52) - And so I think it's a very easy check the box for people to be making that comment. And I do worry that the pendulum keeps swinging remote five days, remote five days. And as soon as the power is in the hand of the employees, people will say, I'm not working anywhere five days. I'm not taking that off, or I'm going to be going remote or hybrid. And one of the things I want people to think about is, why is it that, you know, as the research shows, that many individuals from historically marginalized groups feel more comfortable working remotely? So so why is that? And what happens when we create almost a two tier system where individuals from historically marginalized communities feel more comfortable working remotely, but others want to be in the office? And what kind of divide are we creating there as well?

Jonathan Fields (00:29:46) - Yeah, I.

Jonathan Fields (00:29:46) - Mean, it's basically.

Jonathan Fields (00:29:47) - So complicated, right?

Jonathan Fields (00:29:48) - It's like technological it's inadvertent technological segregation, basically.

Mita Mallick (00:29:52) - There it is.

Jonathan Fields (00:29:53) - But but under the guise of no, we all have the same access and we can do the same thing.

Jonathan Fields (00:29:58) - But it's so fascinating how it can default to that so easily. And it's almost like it lets leadership off the hook of saying no. Actually, we still need to do the work. And actually, if anything, we may need to do even more work.

Jonathan Fields (00:30:15) - Absolutely. If we have.

Jonathan Fields (00:30:15) - Remote or hybrid, because now we have we have new ways for people to draw lines, both themselves or people, other people to draw lines of exclusion. And we need to figure out how to actually address that as well. Now.

Mita Mallick (00:30:29) - Absolutely. And I'll speak for myself personally as a woman of color when I'm working remotely. I don't have to be worried about being soft spoken. I don't have to be worried about taking up too much presence. I'm in my own box. I don't have to worry about people calling my lunch smelly, or making comments about my appearance or hair, or how I look, or all the effort I might have to put in to how I'm showing up live, versus the balance of being able to also work remotely.

Mita Mallick (00:31:01) - And so I think what people are missing is that human beings crave connection. And so it's not that. People want to work from home forever. It's the flexibility piece and that of course people want to get together and collaborate. But to understand, like if somebody doesn't want to come into the office, there's probably a number of factors to that. But also understanding what is the office environment like as well as that individual, what was their experience?

Jonathan Fields (00:31:27) - I would imagine also that if leadership basically did an analysis and they said, okay, let's look at our thousand employees. And to the extent that people will self-identify by different types of criteria that could be subject of exclusion if they actually looked and said, who's choosing to be here all the time? Who's choosing to be hybrid and who's choosing to be remote, that simply that analysis might reveal the existence of exclusion that they weren't even focused on.

Jonathan Fields (00:31:57) - Absolutely.

Jonathan Fields (00:31:57) - So coming full circle, the name of your book is Reimagining Inclusion. If there was one thing, one idea, one key, one strategy, one insight that you would most want leaders to really reimagine, like if if this was like the one big starting point, the big thing, what would it be?

Mita Mallick (00:32:18) - I want people to understand.

Mita Mallick (00:32:19) - What I have been saying for years is inclusion is a driver of the business full stop. You will be left behind by competition. We know what the numbers are. You can see the research included in Reimagine Inclusion. But here's also the thing. It's the biggest retention tool we have right now. Jonathan, if I work for you, I feel seen, valued, recognize my voice matters. My contributions matter. I'm making meaningful impact. That's priceless. Someone can come around with another offer. Maybe I'll leave for 100,000. I'm joking. But like, I've led a portfolio that was in double digit decline. I did it for three years. I never looked once. I never updated my resume. I'd be like, well, that sounds like a crappy assignment. No, I just felt so respected and we were all in it together. And we did eventually turn that business around. But that is the biggest retention tool we have. And so think about you don't have to be the CEO to be doing this work.

Mita Mallick (00:33:10) - Be the reason that someone feels included and valued in the workplace, be the reason, be that person for them. And there's so many different ways in which we can be doing that.

Jonathan Fields (00:33:21) - Yeah, I.

Jonathan Fields (00:33:21) - Love that and that it feels a great place for us to wrap up. Also, thank you so much for sharing insight. Everybody, please. We just touched on a handful of the myths, but you've got to dive into all because you may recognize your workplace, you may recognize your team. You may recognize yourself in these on either side of the myth. And it just will really get you thinking about how do I show up differently in a way that actually is better, and how do I help others do the same? Me too. Thank you so much.

Mita Mallick (00:33:48) - Thank you John.

Jonathan Fields (00:33:54) - Hey, so I hope you enjoyed that conversation. Learned a little something about your own quest to come alive and work in life, and maybe feel a little bit less alone along this journey to find and do what sparks you.

Jonathan Fields (00:34:06) - And if you'd love to share your own moment and question with us, we would love to hear from you. Just go ahead and click on the submissions link in the show notes to get the details on how to do that. And remember, if you're at a moment of exploration, looking to find and do or even create work that makes you come more fully live, that brings more meaning and purpose and joy into your life, take the time to discover your own personal spark, a type for free. At Sparketype.com, it'll open your eyes to a deeper understanding of yourself and open the door to possibility like never before. And hey, if you're finding value in these conversations, please just take an extra second right now to follow and rate SPARKED in your favorite podcast app. This is so helpful in helping others find the show and growing our community so that we can all come alive and work in life together. Until next time. I'm Jonathan Fields and this is SPARKED.