How to Say No Without Feeling Bad About It

Jonathan Fields: [00:00:08] So why do we feel so bad when we say no to people, even to complete strangers who request our time or advice or even money out of the blue? What is going on there? What is the deeper psychology of our seeming inability to comfortably and shamelessly just say no, even to people in things that sound genuinely interesting, but are not landing at a moment when we have the capacity to say yes. This dilemma, it shows up at work all the time, and also in every other part of life and personal relationships. We worry about disappointing others, missing out on something better, or even jeopardizing our work relationships. But what if reclaiming the lost art of no, opened up space for what matters most? Today, Jenny Blake and I get real about the nuances of setting boundaries and saying no. Jenny is a career and business strategist, podcaster, and award-winning author of three books Life After College, The groundbreaking pivot for Navigating What's Next, and her recently published free time for Optimizing What's Now. Together, we look at what motivations compel chronic people pleasers to overcommit, how systems can help eliminate the need for repeated knows what decision filters discern a clear yes from an energy draining maybe or no, and we do some serious myth busting along the way and offer strategies.

Jonathan Fields: [00:01:29] So if you struggle to decline without guilt, tune in to this for permission to reframe no as an act of yes to you and maybe even profound self-care and growth. Let's dive in. I'm Jonathan Fields and this is SPARKED. Hey, before we dive into today's show, you know, we've learned that a lot of our listeners are sort of at this moment where they're really exploring the notion of work in their lives and their next moves in their careers. And if you are in that place, we talk about SPARKED and the Sparketypes a lot on this show, this body of work that we've developed to help you really identify what makes you come alive and how to apply that to the world of work. We've heard from a lot of folks that they would also love some help along that journey. If you're curious, you can also find on our website a directory of Certified Sparketype Advisors who know this body of work and can really help coach and guide you through it. So, we'll drop a link to the show notes in that right now.

Jonathan Fields: [00:02:35] And if it feels interesting to you and you just like somebody to help guide you through this next part of your career or work journey, take a look and see if somebody resonates. It might be the perfect fit to help you along this next leg of your journey. Again, that link is in the show notes now. Jenny Blake. We are back with a SPARKED hot take, and this is one of those conversations for those who are new to our community, where we take one single topic and we kind of go deep into it. And Jenny, you brought this topic to me today, and I think it is really an interesting one to start the year off, because so often when we start a year, we're focused on all the things we want to do, all the things we want to accomplish, all the things that we want to say yes to. And in fact, some people even start the year by saying, this is the year of yes, I'm just going to say yes to everything and see what happens. And we're teeing up almost the opposite of that. So I'm going to hand it over to you to take us there.

Jenny Blake: [00:03:44] The skill that I've had the hardest time learning, that is a perpetual work in progress for me is saying no. And not just platitudes like the importance of saying no. I mean, not to mention people who do a whole year of yes, I'm not interested in that. I'm interested in how do you say no when it's difficult, when you feel torn or you feel I call it micro guilt. I just feel that even the more successful you are in your career, the more you're going to need to say no. So, we talked in a previous SPARKED about how to know when to quit something, whether a full time job or just a creative project on the side. Today, I'm really curious to hear your insights again. Not just the importance of saying no, but actual systems, practices, tips and tools, tricks, things that we've accumulated and collected over the years that help us decide at a high-level decision filters for saying no or even things that we're borrowing from other people that have been inspiring. Because to this day, sometimes I just need to hear how somebody else says no or makes those choices, and it gives me a little permission slip to.

Jonathan Fields: [00:04:51] Um, yeah, I love that. And this is something that I've have had conversations with so many people over the years. This is something that floods into our life, not just in work, although for sure in work, especially depending on your context and like relative power levels and stuff like that, it can be a really important thing. This is in our personal life and relationships. This is in it's also in our relationship to ourselves. Like what are we saying? Like no to that. We yearn to do that nobody else is asking us to do. So. This comes up in a relationship with ourselves, with others, work, social, um, social propriety especially like family things. It literally touches into every single aspect of our lives. And I think it's really interesting to explore, like the context of the decision filters for saying no. And then how do you actually like execute on the no. So that it's effective and it works and you don't feel burdened with like, oh, I feel like such a bad person for having said or done that or, or not taking the person up or not helped in some meaningful way. It lands in an interesting way for me also, because I am somebody who sort of moves through life with a lens of possibility. I wake up in the morning, I open my eyes. I am a maker. So, like, I literally like live to make ideas manifest. And the way that I tend to see the world is ideas just drop left, right, center back like nonstop, all day, every day.

Jonathan Fields: [00:06:17] Which on the one hand is a fun way to be because you're living in a place of space of possibility on a pretty regular basis. It's a nice place to dance, and on the other hand, it can rise to the level of self-abuse when you have so many of these things dropping constantly and your brain wants to say yes to all of them, and then you start to say yes to way too many that you actually have the capacity to do on a meaningful level or a sustainable level, let alone on a level that makes you feel confident and competent and good about what you're doing. And it all kind of comes crashing down. So, I've actually learned that this wiring about me, on the one hand, is really beneficial. It lets me see opportunities and possibilities and create new things and breathe new life into ideas and endeavors. And at the same time, it amplifies my struggle with the word no, because it requires me to have to think it and then say it, and then put action and energy behind it way more often than if I probably didn't live in this space of perpetual possibility. So that's so it was interesting. That was my immediate reaction when you said, let's talk about this. What about you?

Jenny Blake: [00:07:32] Well, I love what you just shared and I can relate to that so much, which is that in the past, I would only get to the know when I was already burnt out. So it's almost like I love this saying don't write a check. Your future self can't cash. So it's like our present self writes all these checks and feels so time abundant. But then the future self arrives and everything feels crammed and overwhelming. And then let alone you get sick. Or sometimes you get sick because you're so crammed full of stuff. You've said yes to too many kind of mediocre things, to be honest. And so what I find interesting is that in the past, I would just like you, I would kind of give myself a permission slip to say no, but almost too late. And I found it so much harder to say no when I knew that there was space on the calendar where I was saying no in advance, preemptively to create a more spacious schedule. And that's for me, where some of my guilt would come in like, oh, I should squeeze this in, or, well, I can squeeze this in, so I will. And it's really hard to rewire my brain to say no earlier knowing. And maybe you just have to go through a few burn out cycles or you get. I know we've all been through the wringer the last many years. You're almost to the point of so exhausted that you have to develop a new no habit. Yeah, a new way of doing that.

Jonathan Fields: [00:08:56] How much? I feel like there are a couple of causes for this impulse, for so many of us to say yes to everything and not want to say no. Let's explore some of those reasons behind it, and then let's get to like, let's actually make this tactical. But some of the reasons why somebody feels compelled to perpetually be a yes person, what pops into your head as sort of like the, the, the dominant drivers of this impulse?

Jenny Blake: [00:09:25] Well, I have to give a shout out to Natalie Liu, who you had on Good Life Project. for her book, the Joy of Saying No. And in it she talks about five categories of people pleasers. She's the first person that broke it down for me and for all of us. She has a quiz on her website that for me, it's a people pleasing thing. It's for whatever childhood reasons, wanting to make sure monitoring everyone else in the room before myself, reading people's faces, reading their energy, how can I serve and even sometimes fix other people's mood, and to the point where I would become kind of invisible? It was not about my needs. What did I want? I didn't even know how to answer that question. What do you want, Jenny? I don't have a clue. I'm trying to make you happy over here. I'm doing that song and dance. And it's people like Natalie who address what happens when we do that. So for me, a lot of times when I say yes and I don't really want to, in my heart of hearts, it's often because I don't want to make the person mad or I don't want to disappoint them. Maybe it's a friend and they're launching a book, and the book has nothing to do with my audience. But I feel bad. It's like they're for me. It's not the obvious no's, spam emails, requests from people I don't know.

Jenny Blake: [00:10:42] Where it's hardest for me is where I have some kind of relationship. I genuinely want to be helpful. Or maybe I part of me would want to show up for their event, but then the other part of me wants no part of it. I just want I just want to be home in my sweats. And so I would say the last category for me is where I'm genuinely unsure, like some amount of FOMO sets in. Now, for the most part, I'm a Jomo type of person. I really live for my quiet mornings and I don't want anything at night to interfere, but I can't help but feel sometimes FOMO. Even if someone's reaching out for a coffee talk or to jump on a call. I've gotten better at this, but there will be part of me that says, well, if I say no, am I missing out on a good opportunity? Will I be happier that I rallied and I got out of the house? Then if I just stayed in my routine and I guess there's been enough one off moments where I was happy. But let me tell you, I probably nine times out of ten I go, why the heck did I come out of the house for this? You know? So I think it's also slow learning process and being willing to let some good things fall through the cracks for the sake of spaciousness. How about you?

Jonathan Fields: [00:11:53] Yeah, I think all of that. And then, you know, I was thinking back to some past work experiences and not wanting to let people down or being a people pleaser to a certain extent, especially, I feel like in earlier seasons of my work life. But then one thing that also jumps out to me is there are many times, especially in a work context where there is power inequity. And so example of this. I was a young associate at a mega law firm in New York. You know, like earning my stripes and wanting to show up as my best self and show what I was capable of. And, you know, the carrots being dangled out in front of me. You do this for the next ten years and you be considered for partner. And, you know, clearly as sort of like the new person on the team, even though I actually I came out of a prior law job at the SEC. So like I had experience, but I was still new there and I was still on the younger side with associates. I felt like there was a huge power in equity, and that I needed to say yes to whatever was given to me or asked of me, because if I didn't, I was in the early stages of trying to build.

Jonathan Fields: [00:13:02] Credibility and social currency and capital within my job culture, and that if I said no, that I would basically deplete that that currency bank account and that I would have, you know, whatever little power that I had through my competence in showing up, I would bring to zero by saying no out of the gate to things that, um, I, you know, like just were too much for me. In my case, that led me to be hospitalized three weeks after starting, because I said yes to everything, because I felt like I had to. I didn't have any other choice, and I basically never went home for the better part of three weeks. And, you know, the one of the first beds that I slept in was a hospital bed after emergency surgery. So there was a huge wake up call for me. But I also think it's important to acknowledge the fact that sometimes we're compelled to say yes because we feel like, especially in a work context, we don't actually have the power or the social capital to say no without it causing real harm to us and what we're trying to create. And I think that's a really thorny issue to unpack because it's not straightforward and it's not the same for everybody. Right.

Jenny Blake: [00:14:21] And first of all, that's I didn't ever know that about your early days and getting hospitalized like that. And I think that is sometimes the difficult way we really get smacked in the head with this requirement to build this skill. I was thinking about the office situation because there's tools, at least two schools of thought. One would be, okay, well, if you are starting out and somebody asks you to go make the coffee, make the best pot of coffee, do it with joy. Come bounding in. You people associate you with your their favorite beverage. And then of course, the research shows, okay, women are more likely to be asked to do that and they're more likely to volunteer to do that kind of thing. The office housework, as it's called. And so I could also see that if you say yes to too many of those things, that's not what's going to be valued at the performance review. But you never know, because sometimes maybe doing those little things and doing them with joy and doing them really well does get you noticed, and it gets you exposed to people. And so I agree with what you're saying. There's not always a clear cut answer. And when there is a power imbalance, I can't imagine me. When I was an intern at Rock the vote, let's say while I was in college, I did whatever they asked me to do. And if somebody asked me to go make coffee, I didn't say, excuse you, I'm not going to do the office housework.

Jenny Blake: [00:15:35] I just did what I was asked to do, like, and I think it's not always clear when to question that or when to just go with the flow. And so it's I do feel I like what you're saying, because I think that takes it away from just being some personal flaw. If you're stuck doing some of this, or you too don't know what to say or what to do. Even in the entrepreneurial world, there are some relationships that feel really generous and abundant, like the one I have with you. And then there are others that feel very transactional and very tit for tat. And some people genuinely, if you turn them down for something like might not ever speak to you again. You know, sometimes there are consequences for certain relationships. And I guess ultimately we can also read the patterns that if you are in a job like that and it is really transactional and for tat and you're overloaded and nobody's recognizing it, like ultimately it might be kind of a toxic environment, you might not be able to leave or do anything right away, but your spidey senses go up and you'll I think sometimes we have to be the ones to set our own boundaries. Like the lesson you learn the hard way, because no one's going to set them for us. They'll just keep piling, piling, piling until you end up in the hospital.

Jonathan Fields: [00:16:53] Yeah, and that was the case for me. And then I stuck around. But, you know, it was a year later that I finally gave the ultimate no. And basically tapped out and said, done. Let's switch into decision filters. Like how do we actually let's say we have the ability and we're ready to actually start to say we want to say no to certain things, not no to everything, but like to the right things. Like we want to be able to say, feel comfortable saying no. Let's talk about some of the different techniques or ideas or decision filters, as you like to say. One that I actually just wanted to float because I hear this and I've seen this all over the socials for years, is this decision filter that says if it's not a hell yes, it's a no. What's your take on that?

Jenny Blake: [00:17:42] In general? I think it's helpful. My friend Julie also gave me a writing adage when in doubt, go without, so that could be another. We could apply it socially. I don't you know, I don't know. I've heard this many over many, many years. I've reflected over many years. I generally think it's a good rule of thumb. I still I still sometimes struggle to know my precise hell yes. And I do allow sometimes for one category less than the like ebullient jumping with joy. Hell yes. The way I try to reframe that for myself is, would I have proactively reached out to schedule this if it wasn't an inbound request? And that helps me put my people pleaser aside and understand. For me, with where I'm at, the responsibilities on my plate, I even ask myself, have I talked to grandma recently? If not, I might not add a random call at someone else's request or I will switch the context. So if someone's asking for a call, I might say, why don't you leave me a voice memo and I'll reply asynchronously. So I sometimes for me it's okay if it's not a hell yes. For the request itself, I will sometimes look for ways to serve the need that don't involve especially adding things to my calendar.

Jonathan Fields: [00:18:59] Got it. How about.

Jenny Blake: [00:19:00] You? What's your take on that phrase?

Jonathan Fields: [00:19:01] So I have a knee jerk reaction against it. Not that I have a knee jerk reaction against doing things that make me say, hell yes. Like that's awesome. If it's a clear hell yes, that's amazing. But like you kind of hinted at, we don't often get signals that strong. And sometimes when we do, it's actually we're saying, hell yes, do the wrong things. We're saying, you know, we're saying it to the, the part of it that actually might end up actually being the thing that we don't want that is destructive, that is, you know, risky or dangerous. But more than that, when I think about some of the most meaningful, deepest, joyful, enduring relationships, experiences or pursuits in my life, many of them started with great caution and trepidation, and it was absolutely not a hell yes in the beginning. But over time, like the relationship deepened, I felt more comfortable. I got to know I, I let go of my stories and my stuff and just like what got present in it and then like, and this became a reciprocal thing and relationships that absolutely did not start as a hell. Yes, became the most, some of the most nourishing things in my life that have endured for decades, experiences or pursuits, you know, that started where I had almost no skill or competence. So if like I looked at that and like immediately there wasn't an immediate hell yes, because I was like, I have no idea how to do this, I'm going to feel terrible doing it.

Jonathan Fields: [00:20:39] And maybe for a while until I have baseline competence and I can understand whether it is a hell yes for me or not, because most things are a hell no when we're bad at them. So you sometimes have to give a window just to like reach baseline competence to understand whether it would be something that you actually are genuinely open to and that could become something amazing. So I actually I understand the sentiment to it. And I do understand that like every once in a while you will get that immediate hit that says that gives you the big, you know, like h w right there. And that could be a really good sort of decision filter. But I also do believe that a lot of times it's it's not the right call to immediately take something out of consideration just because you don't have that instant visceral response for it. So I don't use that as a filter. I think when like earlier in, in my life, I may have used a lot more. I've seen it fail, and I've seen that filter would have kept so many amazing things out of my life had I used it, that I can't imagine using that as a primary guide to make a decision to say no anymore.

Jenny Blake: [00:21:48] Not to mention the fact that what if you have too many hell yeses? It also breaks down, right? So Oliver Burkeman does a great job of debunking the big rocks. Put your big rocks in first, which is like classic time worn productivity principle. Because what if you have too many big rocks? Like you're raising children and you love time in nature, and you love working out of coffee shops, and you love traveling across the world like you just can't do them all at once. So it does also break down when you have the great fortune of having too many aliases in your life, or too many things. And anyone who's raising young kids, which I'm not. But I have friends who do like you know that. Or training a puppy at home doesn't matter. Like it's hard enough just to meet the demands of just day to day functioning and staying healthy and quality time with loved ones, let alone any single other person or opportunity that comes in, no matter how much of a hell yes it is. If you're not well rested, like you can't really say yes to any of it.

Jonathan Fields: [00:22:51] Yeah. So agree. So let's talk about some decision filters that might be effective in understanding when and how to say no. You have an interesting you've teed up a couple here. So walk me through some of these.

Jenny Blake: [00:23:04] Well one of the biggest principles in free time the book the podcast is stress is a systems problem. So I was thinking about our intern at the company being asked to do something annoying, and I thought to myself, how would I address that with knowing what I know now? One system could be okay. Somebody offhandedly asks you to take notes in the meeting. Great. Knock it out of the park and then say, and by the way, I developed a system because the problem is just that notes need to be taken at the meeting. Great. I also went ahead and came up with a system. There's a rotating, randomly selected note taker, and we pull it out of a hat. Or this or ChatGPT generates a random choice of who takes them. Oh, and I created a best practice one sheeter on how our meeting notes are best handled and who how they get distributed. So something where you can say yes once, but then create a system so that every subsequent time it happens it's either. Made it. There are even tools for this now that will take notes automatically and even summarize them and pull out action items. So I think it's being part of the systems solution can turn a short term. Yes, into a systematized long term no. Yep.

Jonathan Fields: [00:24:14] That makes a lot of sense to me. And then if we if we really think about it in the very current context, you can almost say, if I can do it 90% as well as a human, then it should be a no. What do you think of that? I mean, you don't want to think about that, because now we're starting to, like, broaden the conversation about its effect on jobs in the workforce and things like that. But that conversation is coming. So but it's really just.

Jenny Blake: [00:24:39] And I think the ones who are willing to ask it will benefit.

Jonathan Fields: [00:24:42] Yeah. And it's like it is it is a method of systematizing the way that you're talking about. Yes. So I like that. So one is basically if you can build like do it once maybe. And then if once you see that there's a need but there's a system that can basically automate it or replicate it. Yes. You basically you're you're eliminating the future need to say no by saying yes to the system instead.

Jenny Blake: [00:25:02] Mhm. Another idea. So a couple ways of batching or grouping I love Brad Feld I don't know if he still does them. He's a venture capitalist. He would do random days. So one day a month people could schedule him for 15 or 30 minute blocks. Anyone, anyone who read his blog, anyone who was a friend of a friend, just he had ten slots, let's say one Thursday every month. And that's what he called random day. And that's when people could, quote, pick his brain or meet with him and he would just funnel everyone. And if one Thursday filled up, you got to wait till the next. But he loved it. He ended up really enjoying them because for him it was just like meeting roulette. He would have these really interesting days once a month, and I think each person can look at their own capacity. So some kind of catch all. My friend Dory used to host author dinners in New York City, and again, when people would reach out inviting her to coffee, she'd say, oh, I actually, I have a dinner coming up. You're more than welcome to join. And then the guest gets the benefit of meeting everybody else there, too. And then finally, in terms of just kind of batching and things like this, I thought long and hard, what is my true capacity to go meet someone for coffee or for a walk and talk? And for me, it's maximum once a week.

Jenny Blake: [00:26:17] So finally, after years of fumbling and delaying getting back to people on these types of requests, now I know that my window for that is Thursdays at 2 p.m. and that's just one example. Like it does shift over time, but I've even gotten to the point where I've chosen my favorite coffee shop. And if someone reaches out and then I'll say, great, how's Tuesday at 2 p.m. at such and such location? I've already thought through all that in advance, and it just takes away. And then you combine it with a scheduling tool like Calendly that I even have a customized Calendly link for in person coffees, and I could even create one for in person walk and talks, which sometimes people want to just join me in writer on our outing and get some fresh air. Things like that eliminate all the friction of deciding when and what day is good. They just look at your link, pick the day. All the other details are already decided in advance. Set it and forget it.

Jonathan Fields: [00:27:12] Right. So you basically you have to first you do have to say yes or no to who you actually are willing to share the link with. Yes. But then after that, you know, like you don't have to think about your capacity or like scheduling. It's just like next available. It's like up to you, you know, like this is limited capacity. I've already made that decision. It's similar in ways that I was thinking. I use time blocking as a way to reinforce the no for me. So rather than keeping to do lists, which I'd done for a long time, a time block everything. So I actually every task isn't just on a list somewhere with like a checkbox. It's actually scheduled, you know, with an estimate of how long it will take me to do it into my calendar so I can look at my calendar. And that gives me a much more realistic understanding of what my true capacity is to say yes or no to anything new. These days it's generally very small, so. But it's good because I can look at it visually and it objectively tells me even, even, you know, if it's interesting, I don't have the capacity to say yes, even if I wanted to, without doing some level of injustice to whatever the person or the activity was. So it becomes a no or not. Now for me, simply because I don't have that capacity. And then if I add it in, like sharing that link the way that you're doing it, that was built around time blocks that are carved out of the schedule, that would sort of like for the things that were, yes, automatic automate the process of like making it eventually happen and maybe it takes a couple of months, whereas somebody wants it to happen this week. It is what it is.

Jenny Blake: [00:28:48] Yeah. And doing something you love, like, I know you love hiking and not that you'd want a guest with you every time you go for a hike, but maybe twice a month there is a. An available slot that somebody can meet you for a hike, and that way you're not meeting them. Because haven't we all done this where it's like, oh, you're stuck in traffic for 45 minutes to get to their location for a meeting that they requested? It's like, no, they get to plug into something that's already joyful for you. And I find that I get quite restless, actually, especially if I'm meeting somebody I don't know. And we're just sitting at a table in a coffee shop. So I think it's like learning what, what about the environment is already going to spark joy. And then you plug a person into your context rather than always jumping through hoops for other people around this stuff.

Jonathan Fields: [00:29:36] Love it. So what about in a work context? Let's say you're on a team, and the team lead is regularly assigning work to you, or asking you to do something and then asking you to do something more and then asking you to do something more. And then as happens, if you actually accomplish that and without even showing how much it's taking out of you, then somebody else who's on a different team as a team lead there sees what you're capable of and starts to give you their work because they think you're capable of amazing things. This is a common scenario. Again, you want to say yes. You want to like do well. You want to get a good quote performance review. And but you literally hit a point where you can't do it anymore without it causing some sort of physical or emotional harm to you, or just burnout and break down and overwhelm. And you have to say just it's just it's not a yes, but not now. It's not a here's my scheduling thing. It's not a repeatable thing that we can systematize. It's just a hard no, like, I cannot do this as much as I would like to. And I wish I could get the, you know, the accolades or like the social currency of having done it and said, yes, but I can't, I physically can't do it. How do you say no at that point?

Jenny Blake: [00:30:52] Well, I've been on both sides of this, and we even have phrases like, if you want something done, give it to a busy person, and you know that in corporate you're actually punished. The more efficient you are, the more work you're going to get. And there's no I mean, maybe eventually you'll get a promotion or a salary raise or some kind of spot bonus, but in corporate it's like, oh, you're competent and effective and really good at what you do. Great. Let's pile on more. And like you said, then even related teams start to add to it. Going back to the system solution, I would because I've been the manager too, where I've had, let's say, a VA on my team and I just keep throwing work and I'm not gauging her true capacity. I'm just like throwing stuff at the wall. I'm not adding up how much time the new stuff takes with the recurring old stuff. So if I were in this position at work, I would say I would even have a weekly check in or during my one on ones with my manager, I would bring the list of what I'm working on. And I would say, and, you know, here's what I have on my plate this week, and here are the new requests.

Jenny Blake: [00:31:52] What would you like me to prioritize or given the recurring tasks you asked for this and so and so over there asked for this? I'd love to talk through with you what I should prioritize and by when things are due, and we might need to renegotiate some of the timing. I would just make it a regular, transparent practice. Here's what I got going on. Let's work together to prioritize. Because I do think that for the most part, most managers, they're just not aware. So if you have a regular practice of you checking in on your true capacity and moving the blocks around and they'll help you move them around that as long as there's clear communication, they'll actually see that as a skill that you have, which is time management, really. I mean, I know that phrase is kind of out, but in this sense you're going to do them a favor by saying, great, here's everything we have on our plate. Here's what I'm thinking is the most important that I can get done by Friday. Do you agree? What's your take?

Jonathan Fields: [00:32:47] Yeah, no, I agree. And like you, I've been on both sides of that. Um, I haven't been the person who felt like the crushing burden of just being assigned more and more and more, and as a leader, I have been the person who just assumed that somebody was doing an amazing job, had the capacity to keep doing more. And I wanted because it was being done at an incredible level until you like somebody said to me, um, I think we need to talk. And, and I was thankful for that because it like it. I think those rebalancing moments are critically important because it keeps respect and dignity in the conversation, and it keeps the individuals and the relationship and the team and the output and everything healthy. So they're hard sometimes to do, but I think also necessary. So we've moved through a bunch of different ideas and strategies and decision filters here. Um, as we wrap up this conversation about how and when and why to say no. Any final thoughts on this topic?

Jenny Blake: [00:33:50] Yes, I have to squeeze in two final little filter strategies one, a quote from Peter Drucker that Jim Collins. Don't make 100 decisions when one will do. Sometimes you just need to give a blanket. No. Like this year, I'm not going to say yes to fill in the blank and whatever it is, make the decision once and let it be a blanket permission slip. And the other last little filter that I want to offer is decide your own decision criteria for whatever it is. So we have a mutual friend who has six criteria for when he gets invited to give a keynote speech and has to meet three of the six. You can really break this down. So are they paying the full fee? Is it for a friend? Is it in a cool location? Is it for at least a thousand people? Are they going to buy books? He doesn't need all six, but it's got to fit three of the six. So you could have that for getting invited to a dinner party. And it could just be. Is it someone we love? Is it close by? Whatever it is, I think it's trying to systematize the decision making process itself, to reduce the decision fatigue that sets in when we feel like it's coming at us from all sides.

Jenny Blake: [00:35:01] So that's those are the last two little strategies that I wanted to offer. And at a higher level, to zoom out, I would just say surprise yourself, like give yourself extra permission to say no in the next month. Run it like an experiment, personal or professional. It will be a little bit scary. But what would happen if you flipped your relationship to saying yes and no to where you were, saying no preemptively, and letting yourself be surprised with what you end up doing with that extra time, rather than always feeling time stressed and time crunched, or time confetti, which is where your time is just really not your own. It's chopped up into a thousand little pieces. I do think that there's a cumulative benefit when we stack enough free time in a row. That's where we really get to learn new things about ourselves and get new ideas and pursue new things. And it's really important. So I'll just give everybody listening a permission slip to double how many times you say no in the next month?

Jonathan Fields: [00:36:04] Yeah I love that. And I would I would wrap up also by adding in run a 30 day no experiment, no experiment. So my default state now is no, not yes, I have to be convinced to. And again it's, it's simply a capacity thing for me. I've said yes to too many things there long term. They take a tremendous amount of energy. And I want to do them at a level that makes me feel good. And I know I have very, very limited capacity for anything new. So my default answer now is always no. And I have to actually convince myself or be convinced of why I should move away from that default. So I think an interesting thing to try is to do a 30 day default state, no experiment where your default is no. And that's not being a a downer or being negative. It's simply acknowledging the reality of your day to day capacity and see what happens and see how you feel about it, and then see how your workload shifts and how you're able to say yes and operate at a higher level to the things you do. Commit to changes in that 30 day window, and if it doesn't work for you, then at least you've got data. If it does work for you, push it out, make it 60, make it 90, and then see what happens. When you make that your default state. It actually brings more possibility, more confidence and competence into what you do in a way that may be counterintuitive but has been super effective for me. Thank you Jenny, as always, for your insights and your ideas and your strategies, and to our wonderful listening audience. Thanks so much for tuning in. We'll see you here again next week. Take care.

Jenny Blake: [00:37:44] Thanks so much, everybody.

Jonathan Fields: [00:37:48] Hey, so I hope you enjoyed that conversation. Learned a little something about your own quest to come alive and work in life, and maybe feel a little bit less alone along this journey to find and do what sparks you. And remember, if you're at a moment of exploration, looking to find and do or even create work that makes you come more fully alive, that brings more meaning and purpose and joy into your life, take the time to discover your own personal Sparketype for free at sparketype.com. It'll open your eyes to a deeper understanding of yourself and open the door to possibility like never before. And hey, if you're finding value in these conversations, please just take an extra second right now to follow and rate SPARKED in your favorite podcast app. This is so helpful in helping others find the show and growing our community so that we can all come alive in work in life together. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields and this is SPARKED. This episode of SPARKED was produced by executive producers Lindsey Fox and Me, Jonathan Fields. Production and editing by Sarah Harney. On this episode.