How to Say Yes to Reinvention (and Start a Movement)

Jonathan Fields: [00:00:09] So many of us have felt the call to create our own professional path and start our own business, and that call can be especially strong when your why is deeply personal and mission driven. And sometimes that even means walking away from something else that from the outside looking in, is everything you'd ever want. So how do you handle these moments? Make good decisions and find the courage to step into the unknown. These are the questions that we explore this week with startup founder, advisor and food activists Raina Kumra. So as the founder of Spice Well, CEO of juggernaut and partner at the fund, La Reina is on a mission to help people have greater access to nutrient dense food and better health at scale. After 25 years of working in the tech industry, she realized that big food requires as much work as Big Tech and Big Pharma. When she helped heal her family using Ayurvedic practices, Mid-pandemic named one of Fast Company's most creative people in business. Raina's mastered new territory in each chapter of her storied career. After a decade in digital advertising, working with brands like Nike and Coke, she knew she could create a bigger impact in the world and really went into the world of entrepreneurship and advising and her lifelong passion now starting movements and building new things. She has turned her sights to transforming the American food system. But she had no idea or no experience how the food industry worked. What allowed Raina to fully commit to this new endeavor and quickly acquire expertise outside of her comfort zone? How does somebody say yes to a domain where they have no domain expertise? So today we dive into questions that can arise when making decisions about what paths to take, like how do you avoid the sunk cost fallacy and know when to walk away? And if flooded with ideas and directions, how do you stay focused and committed to one project or path? Excited to bring you this insightful conversation on reinvention, purpose, and pursuing unexpected callings.

Jonathan Fields: [00:02:09] I'm Jonathan Fields and this is SPARKED. It's interesting. I have been in and out of the world of functional medicine, of entrepreneurship, of deep exploration, of food as medicine also for decades. So I'm always fascinated when I see somebody who has this really beautiful, storied career, you know, advertising, tech, media advocacy, investing, entrepreneurship, and now really blending a lot of those together in almost a movement ideology with a focus on food as medicine. You know, one of the things that I think would be interesting to dip into is some of the sort of like the momentum or the energy that has built beyond some of the major pivots. But the bigger curiosity that I actually have given, sort of like a number of different seasons of contribution, is whether there's a deeper through line that you perceive that is really weaves through all of these different things, and that may be rooted in something that's more personal for you.

Raina Kumra: [00:03:20] Oh my gosh. Yes, definitely. I really look back on my career and I look for those themes. And, you know, I also look at what thematically compelled me at the time to take the leap from one industry to another to another, to another, because I've done this about 4 or 5 times where I've switched not just careers, but I've switched entire industries. And I think the thing that has always driven me and enabled me has been to make a dent, to make a movement to, you know, to build a movement and create some change. Maybe not all of the change, but to at least incite it to at least start it. And then once I see it kind of started and rolling, I feel like my job is done and I can back away and go look for the next big juicy problem to solve. And so that's been one of the through lines is really activism, seeing something, not liking the way it is, changing it and applying, you know, all of the skills that I brought along the way to that change to that solution.

Jonathan Fields: [00:04:32] So here's one of my, my curiosities around what you just said. I love that through line, that kind of. And when you look back, you kind of see that weaving into everything. You also said that you love to, to sort of like bring things to a certain point and then hand them over, you know, like bring the team in to say, okay, so you take it from here, as you're saying, that I reflected on one of the conversations that was actually one of the very first that we ever filmed, back in the very early days of Good Life Project. in New York City. We're sitting down with one of the founders of one of the original vegan restaurants in New York, and he had been in it with his wife for many, many, many years. And their the, the staff there was really they treated them like family. And we're talking about how sometimes painful it was when somebody would, would leave after so many years. And he used this phrase that stayed with me that I almost I wonder if it's something that you feel when you're making this handoff. And he would he said to me, I had no ill will. I would simply bless them on, you know, he was completely behind them and completely supportive of them in every way. But the time was right for them to move on and for, you know, like, I wonder if you feel that way about sort of like the things that you create.

Raina Kumra: [00:05:44] Yeah. I think you have to be really honest with yourself. And I think you have to realize when your energy is there and when it's waning, and if you're going to be authentic and live authentically, if your energy is waning, maybe that's not the thing you should be doing. You can't just force yourself to do it. And I think I learned very early on that I was a much better 0 to 1 or 0 to 5 person versus the 10 to 100 person. And I've done both and I've had passion for both. But I think my natural inclination is to let me put this thing in the world that didn't exist before, and then let me show you what to do with it. And then you take the reins and you run with it and let it let it snowball into what I hope it will become.

Jonathan Fields: [00:06:38] Yeah. I'm curious, how do you what tells you that it's time? Um, because I'm wired, actually, very similarly to you. I love the 0 to 1 or 0 to 5, and I've done it a number of times over and, and I have stepped or like sold or exited or handed over a number of times to. And I'm always so curious, what are the internal signs like that people feel that let you know, oh it's time.

Raina Kumra: [00:07:06] Well, the I think the signs that, you know, you're going to go and do something new or build something like those that just comes with like flow, state and energy. And in all of my transitions, there's always been a little bit of wind at my back telling me, like, this is where I need to. Go. And then when that wind fades, you know, you're left to kind of build and continue. And that works for a while. But usually the sign for me is just when I wake up in the morning. Am I still excited about it the way I was a couple of months or a year or two ago? And if it's not there, if that energy isn't there, if that if I'm not going to answer that question honestly and say, actually, I don't have energy for this phase of the business or the project, I think that's, you know, that's you just have to be honest. You just have to say and realize, look, this isn't my best. This isn't where I can do my best work. And I think also understanding, you know, each of us has an individual, unique contribution. You, Jonathan, can only do what you can do, and no one else can do it the way you do it right. And anything you invent and put into the world would have only been because of who you are and your history and your future and all of that. And I feel like knowing that about yourself and knowing the thing that only you can do and only you can put and only solution that you can design and put in the world the way that you see it. Just having that confidence in my individual contribution to the world has helped me both put things in it, and also helped me let go of them when I have finished my work, because I'm not the person who is going to take it, you know, and run it and scale it for forever and ever necessarily.

Jonathan Fields: [00:09:03] Yeah. I'm curious also, is this something that you've always known about yourself, or was there something that happened? Was there a moment where you pushed up against that? Yeah.

Raina Kumra: [00:09:11] No, I did not always know that. I think I learned a pretty hard lesson when I did my first startup, let's call it. I had worked in advertising. I, you know, great job, great gig. Widening Kennedy Nike client Coke, Facebook. You know, the best clients in the world. Great fun, great people. But I just didn't want to sell stuff anymore. There was something in me that just wasn't motivated anymore by selling sneakers and soda. And I thought, what else can I do with the skills that I've amassed? And then I did a total 180. I went to Malawi, where my mom grew up in Africa, and we had a few connections still to heads of state there. And, you know, I had a few meetings and I decided to start a solar training nonprofit there. And I stood it up. You know, within six months I fundraised for it. I stood it up. I went to Malawi. We did on the ground training, and we were training Malawians to maintain and repair and install solar panels, because what had been happening is they were sending people from all over the world to do this. And I'm like, this is just a circuit. Like, anyone can do this. Let's, let's just have some classes and created some really good materials and curriculum and started teaching these community classes. And I think I realized very quickly in that first trip to Malawi, that I did not want to be the person on the ground, and I did not want to be the person doing the work for years and years and years, I realized. And I had to. This was a big struggle. I remember give myself the permission to say that, to say that it's okay, that I'm the person who started it and not the person who finishes it. So yeah, that was a big there was a big moment in my life where I had to take that on as part of my psyche.

Jonathan Fields: [00:11:04] Yeah, I mean, it's so interesting because I feel like whether you're starting your own company, your own private practice, or whether you're an employee in an organization, the more connected to it we are on an identity level. And sometimes that unfolds over years. Sometimes it's just immediately it just becomes a part of you. The harder it is often for us to let go of it, even though there's that voice inside of us that says, you know what? It's actually time. And oftentimes, you know, it's the sunk cost fallacy. Like, the more we've invested in it, the more years, the more resources that we put into it. There's this other voice that says, well, how can you walk away from it when you've you're already so deep into this, you know, and I wonder if you feel like it's unusual for you to have the ability to keep making these decisions where you recognize it's time and then you move on to the next thing. I feel like so many folks really get stuck, and they get that signal that you get. It's time to move on. You know, like you're waking up. There's no energy behind it anymore. And yet they say, But I'm so invested in this, how can I walk away from everything I put into it already?

Raina Kumra: [00:12:11] Yeah, I remember getting that sunk cost analysis lesson too, and it's so hard. It's so hard to peel away from something that you've put. So much love and energy and effort and money and blood, sweat and tears into. I think you just have to pull off that Band-Aid, because that energy, you have to remember, can only go to one place at one time. And whatever you're investing into, something that may not be exactly aligned may not be right. That's also energy. You're not investing in the thing that is right.

Jonathan Fields: [00:12:51] Okay. So now I want to deconstruct what you just shared. You said that energy can only go to one place at one time. This is something that I have pushed up against so many times. I'm like literally in this moment, pushing up against it as I run two different companies and I'm like, and I know, I know in my bones that this is not the way that I feel at my best and that I'm serving the two different communities on the highest possible level. Yet so many of us have this impulse to say, no, I can do it like I can do x, y, I can do one, two, three, maybe even four things. Yeah. And you're saying no. Like, let's get real. You really can't.

Raina Kumra: [00:13:35] So I was lucky enough to work with an incredible coach, um, for the last two years. And her name is Anjani Bhargava. She's amazing. For me, as a South Asian woman, to work with a South Asian coach was a first in my life. And it was amazing in so many different ways. But she is the one who taught me one thing about myself, which is, you know, I want to keep all the doors open and all the times, but energy is leaking out of those doors. So the more doors I close, the more funneled focus and energy I will have for the doors that should remain open for the right ones. And I think that the opportunity cost analysis versus the sunk cost analysis is a very compelling argument, right? My potential, my time, my all of this. Right. You think about that. My children, for example, like if I do this company for the next five, ten years, like they're going to be this age and I'm going to have not been able to do some of the things with them through that time. And you only get one day once you don't get it again, you only get that one moment once. So that is probably if you are an analytical person, the best way to make the decision is to look at really map out your analytical like objectives, map out your opportunity cost, map out what your time is really worth, and then look at, look at what you've invested in and say, yes, I did put a lot of time into that, but do I still do that because it's not worth it most of the time. I think you'll find if it's not a full alignment, it's not worth doing.

Jonathan Fields: [00:15:19] Yeah. So agree. And the opportunity cost side I think is something that so often we don't do that analysis also. You know we're just kind of looking at what we put into it. Yeah. And what's possible. But then we look at what am I saying no to. Yeah. You know. And how is that, how is that denying potentially who I might be of service to in that other possibility. But also what's it denying within me. Yeah. Like and my own humanity and my ability to live the way I want to live. Yes.

Raina Kumra: [00:15:44] And if you can adopt that principle, you can apply it to everything. You can apply that to feeling FOMO, like, why am I spending energy on this when I could be spending energy on something that makes me feel better or or any, any of the things that I think are hindrances and handicaps that we allow ourselves to have, we don't need them. We just keep putting them in our way. And even in organizations, you know, there's so many, so many examples of what we do at work, you know, where we decide to behave a certain way. But really, the entire workplace would benefit if we were more vulnerable, for example.

Jonathan Fields: [00:16:26] Hmm. Yeah. Big leadership lesson in there. You know, I'm thinking about the last four years or so. You know, I think so many people have been brought to moments of reckoning, brought to their knees, brought to moments of awakening, revelation, and also really, really tough times and sometimes profound loss. You know, it's affected different people in very different ways. But I think one of the universal things that I've seen bubble up is a reinvestigation of the way that you're spending your life, and very often with a focus on your working life. You're like, how am I spending this substantial part of my days and of my life? And I know for you, you know, like this. This season led to an entire new endeavor. And it was in part rooted in in a family health crisis.

Raina Kumra: [00:17:15] Yeah, it's. Yeah, exactly. And I think I never intended to be a food entrepreneur. I couldn't have seen this coming in a. Million years. I'd spent most of my career in digital and tech, and that was my comfort zone. So I really had to have a conversation with myself about identity and how it was okay to go into a new field and do something that I had never imagined doing. But the work is different. The work is the work is very different in atoms versus pixels, right?

Jonathan Fields: [00:17:49] Yeah. So. So take me there. Tell me, tell me how this whole story unfolds.

Raina Kumra: [00:17:53] Okay, so middle of the pandemic, I had just sort of wrapped up with, um, the, the venture fund that I helped set up here in LA. We fully deployed. I was thinking about next steps. What I would do, you know, was I going to go heavier into investing? Was I going to do something else? And then I had this voice that was like, there's another build in you, you know, I know there's probably 1 or 2 more builds you need to start a company again. And so I started looking at ideas, I started brainstorming, I started thinking about, and I came up with a million tech ideas, and I didn't like any of them. I just was so bored with all of them. And I think after looking at hundreds and hundreds of decks over the year, a year or two, I was like, not interested in any movement in tech at that time. And then I, um, my husband had knee surgery so brought him home and was, you know, ready to kind of help him get back to health. And then within the same 24 hour period, my five year old daughter broke her collarbone. So now I had two patients to take care of and one of them, uh, 40 something, one of them five, and both of them needing much of the same thing, which was nutrient dense foods to heal their bones, their muscles, their nerves, everything. And I did a lot of research, um, both in Ayurveda, working with an Ayurvedic consultant and using my mom's recipes, my grandma's recipes and a lot of tinctures, a lot of turmeric, a lot of ginger, a lot of seeds.

Raina Kumra: [00:19:28] And that helped them. And then I also looked at nutrition and went to our garden, chopped down kale and broccoli, dehydrated it, put it into all of their foods because you need these things to heal. Like vitamins come from vegetables. There's no need to keep taking pills if you can eat the right amount properly. And that was sort of the genesis of spice. Well, they got better really fast. The doctors were really impressed. We used no over-the-counter medicines, and then I was able to take all of what I learned in that period and apply it across the American public. And I wanted to do it in a way that was had two requirements, one shelf stable because I didn't know how to deal with cold chain, and the other was no habit change something that people already do every day and we can just enhance it. We can just put in some vitamins, we can take out some of the bad ingredients. And it was just a very simple, obvious invention, I guess, a notion that I wanted to try. I tested it with almost 200 people. We got to a final formulation within six months. I had doctor Mark Hyman as an advisor. I had Ann Veneman, who used to run the USDA as an advisor, and we were off and I had product and market six months later. So it was just one of those moments where I got out of my own way. I allowed some flow state to, to take over, and, and I started a company doing something I never expected to do.

Jonathan Fields: [00:20:59] So I want to deconstruct that a little bit because you just said it in a very matter of fact way, like this, then this, then this, then this, and it just it happened like it was great. But I know that that's not what happens when you start a company, especially in the middle of a pandemic, when you're taking care of two family members who are recovering from injury. And yes, you have the chops like you were deep into the world of investment and entrepreneurship. Like you know what that process is about, but this domain is profoundly new to you. Yes. And I guess it is. And it isn't. Right, because this was on the one hand, it was part of your family culture, but not in terms of like building a business around it.

Raina Kumra: [00:21:37] No, no. You know, we do have some food entrepreneurs in our family, but I had never worked at a food company, you know, other than marketing campaigns for some Unilever brands and Nestle brands. I'd never touched the world of food and didn't really understand it. I think what I found so thrilling is learning how much I loved and enjoyed the formulation process, and how much I loved and enjoyed the research process, and understanding what compounds did what to our bodies, to our cells, how things were absorbed, in what combination were they best absorbed. And I just nerded out like I had never, you know, in my life, been able to do because I had never put that in front of me. And I didn't realize this was something I loved so much. And maybe I missed a calling. But, you know, somehow I found I found a place to do it. Yeah. And that allowed me to fulfill my potential in a way that I think otherwise would have gone unnoticed.

Jonathan Fields: [00:22:43] I mean, it's so interesting, right? Because you start something and this is something that I feel like so often happens with us when we get ideas that you'd been literally looking for ideas. Yeah. To, to create something new, like you said, you knew there was a voice inside you that said, I have another build, maybe two inside of me, and you're going through idea ID idea and like, you're, you know, it's like the Marie Kondo of startup ideas. Like, will it spark me? Does it bring me joy? Like everything is saying no to you? And then this one thing happens and you're like, okay, so let me just do what I need to do to take care of my family. And it was that thing that, you know, then you hold it up to your heart and you're like, oh, this. Yeah. Which it's fascinating to me also because this was an area where you'd have to really acquire a huge amount of new domain expertise or bring people together to make that happen. And I think a lot of people, when they hit that point and said, this is really interesting, I'm energized by it. This I could see myself like doing like building something around, but I don't know enough. I'm not I'm not that person. Like, I don't have any pedigree or credibility or I don't have the knowledge or the wisdom and they just walk away from it. There's something in you that said, but I can get it. And I'm curious about that voice.

Raina Kumra: [00:23:57] You know why, Jonathan? Because there have been so many times where I did the other thing, where I had an idea and I was like, oh, well, that's out of my domain of expertise. I, you know, I'm going to invent the next widget that just solves the whole problem of carrying around a phone. I had all these ideas and I never did them. And then two years later, I'll see the idea and I'll see it. And someone else has done it right. And so, because I had enough of that built up in my system at the point where I encountered this idea, I realized I was like, okay, I'm either going to have to take this with both hands and hold on to it and ride this all the way to the end, or I'm going to have to let it go and be happy and comfortable if I see someone else doing it. And something clicked in me at that moment where I was like, I can't let this one go because I'm the right person to do this. If, for example, a frat boy finds this idea and does it, it won't be Ayurvedic authentic. If someone else in big food does it, it won't be clean label because they'll never spend this much on ingredients like I do. So I just was like, I have to do this. This idea has been given to me. I'm going to be the doula for it. I'm going to get it out in the world.

Jonathan Fields: [00:25:19] Um, so when you make that decision that says, this is for me and I'm going to do this, what becomes important to you about the way you're going to do it? About like the fundamental qualities or values or beliefs or like that you want to bring to them, because there are plenty of places where you can get Vedic herbs. There are plenty of places where you can buy organic, like high, high density, nutrient laden foods, but it feels like there's something bigger behind this. It feels like there's a movement energy that is behind this. It's there is there's something bigger. Yeah, that's motivating you.

Raina Kumra: [00:25:54] And I would not be able to sustain interest in anything like I said. Earlier, unless there is that movement, that sort of activism that's that can hold me to it, that can keep me going. Because starting a successful CPG company, a beautiful, beloved brand, that's not the goal. Making something that people love to eat and is better for them, great. That's also not the goal. The goal is actually to impact and change the American food system, which takes us straight from big food into the hands of Big Pharma in a handshake that costs us illness and money. I mean, we spend $3.7 trillion managing chronic illness, and most of that chronic illness is caused by nutrient deficiency. And I think once you see this pattern and you see the chain and you follow the money a little bit, you can't unsee it. And I just got so angry about it. So I had to do something.

Jonathan Fields: [00:26:54] So it becomes the thing you can't not do basically.

Raina Kumra: [00:26:57] That's right. That's exactly.

Jonathan Fields: [00:26:59] Yeah. The other thing that you mentioned, I think is really interesting, it was sort of like your second tenet, which is we have to do something that doesn't require any substantial change behavior or habit, like habit creation or breaking. Take me into that, um, that thought process a bit more because I think it's really interesting given the bigger mission, you know, like, because if you really want something to be adopted at scale, it's really hard to do that if part of that process requires a meaningful change in behavior.

Raina Kumra: [00:27:31] Yeah. I well, and I think what's so nice about being an older entrepreneur is that you have a career behind you and a lot of experience. And so my time in consumer behavior and consumer and working in advertising and really understanding some defaults about consumers in the US, one, Americans don't really read, they don't really read food labels. How do we adjust for that? And then also habit change is incredibly difficult. I mean, it's been difficult for me personally in my life when I want to, you know, start a new smoothie habit or I start using a product for a couple of weeks and then I finish the box and I, you know, forget to reorder it. I think there's a lot around habit change that's been written. I'm, you know, I love Atomic Habits. I read that as well. I understand that there's a lot we can do, but if you want to remove all the friction and get a product to be used, you have to make it dead simple. And that was my goal. And in all of my advertising work, that's always been my philosophy and all my sort of messaging work. Keep it simple. The world is very complicated. We don't need to create any more cognitive load than is necessary at any given moment.

Jonathan Fields: [00:28:49] So as we have this conversation, you're I guess, what about two, two and a half years into this endeavor? Um, two years. Right. Um, so here's my curiosity. Going back to the early part of our conversation. Um, are you still, like, all in on this? Like, yes, yes, yes, we're building, we're building. Building. Yes. Or are you starting to get that voice that says, um, it's time?

Raina Kumra: [00:29:15] No, not at all. Because I think what's a little bit different about this company versus my other companies, they were mostly service businesses. And I think service businesses run a different cycle and take a different toll on you. This was maybe one of the first times that I've not just marketed a product in the world, but I actually created a product and it has a life of its own. So it has been so fascinating to watch this little thing kind of float out into, uh, everyone's consciousness and watch what it does without me. And it's doing a lot. So it's almost like my third child and I'm just sort of, you know, in awe of this little toddler, this little two year old running around the world getting, uh, lots of people to love it. And I think that's what's really different in a way. It's really holding. It's fascinating me and I just can't wait to see what's next.

Jonathan Fields: [00:30:20] Yeah, I mean, what what comes through, you know, like as I'm listening to you and watching you speak is, um, I look at, um, building a company oftentimes, as you know, are you drawn more towards the process of creating something or to the content of what you're creating, whether it's service or product, whatever it may be? Um, or is it both? And what I've seen and I'm so curious what your take is. More often than not, it's one or the other. It's not both. Usually person just loves the process of building or creation. Somebody loves the actual content or the idea or the product, but it's often not. In equal drive for both. But I almost feel like there's. Like what? The energy that that is coming from you is that this may be the first time where you're equally compelled by both parts of this.

Raina Kumra: [00:31:13] Yeah. Yeah, I think that's right. I think that's exactly right. I did have it with my tech company, but I think tech products a little different. The reception's a little different. The use, you know, it's in your phone. This is it's so fascinating to watch this just enter people's lives, their kitchens, their you know, it's it's very different and more fun.

Jonathan Fields: [00:31:38] Yeah. And that's got to be part of the process. I mean, doing your own thing is hard. No matter how much you love it, no matter how much the world embraces it. And if if there isn't some element of fun, at least somewhere along the way, it's really hard to sustain.

Raina Kumra: [00:31:55] I mean, within any given day, I'll have ten highlights and five lowlights. And it's just, you know, the entrepreneurial cycle of like, okay, what was it a good day? I don't know, but at ten points today I was extremely happy. So yes. Hmm.

Jonathan Fields: [00:32:13] I love that. So along the way, I mean, one of the things that you've always done, it's been a part of you is some form of advising, mentoring. It seems like that's sort of in your bones as well. So for folks who are listening to this conversation and they start to feel inspired and start to feel like maybe I'm not bound to whatever I've done before this moment in time, or like there are ideas that I have. What are your thoughts for that person? Like, is there one sort of bit of wisdom that you would invite that person to think about when they're considering a move into creating something that is deeply inspiring to them?

Raina Kumra: [00:32:48] Yeah, I would, I would just remember the equation, right, that we talked about earlier, which is what's the opportunity cost in whatever you're doing now, what's the opportunity cost and where do you want to put your greatest energy of the moment. And what do you want to see coming from it? So yes, if you are in a job right now, if you are thinking about starting something, you have an idea. You know you're the best person to do it or you have the best team around you to execute it. I mean, if you don't execute it, someone else will. So there's, there's that which is a little bit more FOMO driven. But the other way to approach it is this is something that is a gift that's been given to you. Don't we don't know where ideas come from, but they come and you have it and it's yours if you want it. And if you don't pass it along, someone else will do it. But I think when they come to you, you have to at least recognize and acknowledge that a gift has been given. And I think from there you can have a whole different path or route of what happens with that idea versus just dismissing it straight off the bat, which we all do often.

Jonathan Fields: [00:34:03] Hmm. No, that makes so much sense. Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom, your story, and your insights. And thank you to all our listeners. Thanks so much for joining in, and we'll see you here again next week. Take care. Hey, so I hope you enjoyed that conversation. Learned a little something about your own quest to come alive and work in life, and maybe feel a little bit less alone along this journey to find and do what sparks you. And remember, if you're at a moment of exploration, looking to find and do or even create work that makes you come more fully alive, that brings more meaning and purpose and joy into your life, take the time to discover your own personal Sparketype for free at sparketype.com. It'll open your eyes to a deeper understanding of yourself and open the door to possibility like never before. And hey, if you're finding value in these conversations, please just take an extra second right now to follow and rate SPARKED in your favorite podcast app. This is so helpful in helping others find the show and growing our community so that we can all come alive in work in life together. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields and this is SPARKED. This episode of SPARKED was produced by executive producers Lindsey Fox and Me, Jonathan Fields. Production and editing by Sarah Harney. Special thanks to Shelley Adelle for her research on this episode.