How to Seek out Aligned & Anti-Burnout Roles

LinkedIn: [00:00:00] Linkedin presents.

Listener: [00:00:04] My question is, what kinds of professions tend to align well with the Maven and Sage Sparketype and shadow Sparketype?

Jonathan Fields: [00:00:16] In today's episode, listener Tricia, she shares a moment of transition after taking a much needed break from the workforce, which so many of us have done at different points in our lives. So, especially after discovering more about yourself, this becomes a hugely relevant question in this instance. Her Sparketype profile and wanting to find work that aligns more closely with that primary impulse and is less likely to end in burnout. That's the focus of her question. Tricia is curious to know if there are specific professions that are particularly suited to particular impulses, and we have some interesting things to say about this that might surprise you in on deck with me this week from the Spark Braintrust. To help tease out what really matters and share insights and ideas. As founder of Parachute Executive Coaching, acclaimed executive coach advisor to senior leaders for more than two decades, and the author of two great books, The Accidental Alpha Woman and The Complete Executive. Karen. Right, so quick note you will hear us mention something we call the Sparketypes in conversation. Well, what is that? It turns out we all have a unique imprint for work that makes us come alive. That is your Sparketype. And when you discover yours, everything, your entire work and life, even parts of your personal life and relationships, they just make more sense. And until you know it well, we're kind of fumbling in the dark. And just like today's listener did, you can discover your Sparketype for free at sparketype.com. You'll find a link in the show notes. Now on to Trisha's story and question. I'm Jonathan Fields and this is SPARKED.

Listener: [00:01:57] Hi Jonathan and the SPARKED Brain Trust team. My name is Tricia and I'm a 25 year old female from the new Jersey, New York area. I'm currently unemployed, but co-host a society and culture related podcast where my fellow co-host and I discuss topics ranging from personal development to pop culture. Last year in June, I resigned from my high stakes position from the Cfo's Chief of Staff office of a top three investment bank. I was working about 60 to 80 hours a week, including weekends, and was completely burned out. It was difficult spending all my time supporting another individual and also having my schedule be contingent on someone else's wishes. Recently, I took the Sparketype test and read your book spark and learned that my Sparketype is Maven and my shadow Sparketype is sage. My aunt Sparketype is scientist. Freedom, authenticity, independence, growth, integrity and impact are my core values and meaningful connection, strategic A communication and public speaking are my best skills. I understand that in my previous jobs, my work was too detail oriented. I wasn't using my voice enough to illuminate and make an impact, and I had no time to myself to learn and explore the endless number of topics I love learning about. Most importantly, there was no time to rest. I have had the opportunity in the past year since I resigned to do that. However, the podcast I co-host is just for fun and gives me the platform to research various topics and speak on them at my own will. However, I do need to enter back into the job market for now to make a steady income again, I feel confused on how to find a position that will align with my aforementioned values and skills. My question is, what kinds of professions tend to align well with the maven and sage Sparketype and shadow Sparketype? And if there isn't statistical data available on that, how can I use the knowledge of my Sparketype to rebrand myself accordingly and find a more aligned role compared to what I was doing before. Thank you.

Jonathan Fields: [00:04:11] Hey, so I want to let you know about something, especially if you're a coach, consultant, HR pro, or leader. Through our related research and training organization, Spark Endeavors, we've been developing next generation tools to really help make better, easier, and more confident career decisions like the Sparketype assessment, a powerful tool that helped well over a million people now and has generated over 50 million data points, making it one of the largest studies on work satisfaction in the world. And as the Sparketypes have grown into this global phenomenon, coaches and consultants, HR pros and leaders, they began asking us for help unlocking the power of the Sparketype tools and body of work for clients and teams. So a number of years back, we created a professional level training and certification. The Certified Sparketype Advisors program and enrollment is now open for the Apple training and for those ICF coaches. This training also provides a whopping 40 continuing education credits. So check out the details, see if it feels right, and apply today to save your spot at Sparketype.com pros, or just click the link in the show notes now. Oh, there are so many places that we could dive in here.

Karen Wright: [00:05:31] This is this. Juicy on multiple levels.

Jonathan Fields: [00:05:34] It really is. I'm kind of. Feeling I want to hold her her question until a little bit later in the conversation and back up a little bit. There are a bunch of things that jumped out to me, but I'm curious, like, what were the things that really jumped out at you? Sort of like most immediately?

Karen Wright: [00:05:48] Oh boy. On a very me sort of professional level, it really, really irks me when I hear that, you know, 60 to 80 hour weeks. At somebody else's beck and call. Lose your weekends. There's just so many things wrong with that. And I hold this naive belief that maybe we're evolving past that. And yet every day, almost, I hear of yet another example where that culture still exists. So I feel badly for her that she had an experience where that was the case, because I hope it won't always be in that industry, and I know that it's shifting other places. We're just not quite there yet.

Jonathan Fields: [00:06:22] Yeah, you know that that was one of the things that just jumped out at me right away too, you know? Yeah, she teed that up right in the early part of what was being shared. And especially now, you know, because as we're having this conversation, we're in this moment where the power dynamics have changed profoundly, profoundly agreed. What used to be the assumption, it's like, oh, if you want to be in the finance world, if you want to be in a top one, 2 or 3 investment bank, this is just the way it works. And now all of a sudden the people are saying, no.

Karen Wright: [00:06:56] I don't know of any hiring manager who doesn't have numerous openings. And in fact, I was having a conversation with a senior level executive in public relations recently. And just in their their sort of area of their large firm. She has 40 openings at the entry and mid levels. 40. So and I heard another stat recently that in a very specialized technology area, there's eight openings for every single applicant who's qualified. So if that's not the case in investment banking at those lower levels today, it will be. It can't help but be because people are just calling time on that whole thing, I think.

Jonathan Fields: [00:07:32] Yeah. You know, and in a more nuanced way, I'm curious how you feel about that. Also, for somebody to be the chief of staff for a CFO for. So for a C-suite executive working 60 to 80 hours a week also implies that that executive is working at least that, if not more so. So part of the problem, because some people will hear this and say, look, it's just the nature of the job. You know, if you're supporting one of the senior people in a massive firm, you're like, that person is going to, quote, have to put in 8200 hours a week. It's the nature of the job, you know. And they've worked for decades to get that job. It just is what it is. So you have to say yes to that. So part of what like, like comes to mind for me also is what is the responsibility of the C-suite in setting expectations, you know, like in questioning their own assumptions about not only what what is what it takes for them to actually show up and do their job effectively. But what they're modeling for everyone outside of that, that suite.

Karen Wright: [00:08:34] Yeah. You know, I will often engage in conversations with people about what the real expectations are. How do they know that that's what's expected. And in some businesses and investment banking maybe may still be one of them. It really is real that there's just such intensity because there's so much money involved. And, you know, so much of what goes on is so high profile and so high stakes, it might actually really be true that there's the the feeling that that level of commitment has to be in place. You know, another piece of that just in that particular business, when the markets are happening, when the markets are open, you're really busy. Presumably the rest of your work is largely sort of business building social stuff. And I don't know where someone in a role like this individual had, I don't know what role they would play in some of that sort of business development stuff. But but I agree, I think that it is the responsibility of the C level individuals to really examine what culture they're creating and to understand what what messages they're sending, both explicit and implicit, and take some ownership for that. But you and I both know, and you probably more so than me, given given your background, there are those who just think that that's what's required in order to air quotes. Win.

Jonathan Fields: [00:09:52] Yeah. And, you know, it's interesting The, um, it is easy to look at a job like that in an industry like that and say it is just the nature of the beast, like when you're saying yes to this, this is what you're saying yes to. And at the same time, I had the briefest of experiences in working in large law in a very past life in New York City. So I was I was we were the lawyers for all of these firms. So we worked all of the equal hours to them. You know, we were at the printer for days on end. We were like on deal for like massive amounts of money. And the expectation is you work 100 hours a week. It just is what it is. That's the way, you know, and you're compensated at a fabulous level for doing this. But the reality is, and I've thought about this recently when I thought about my time doing that. Yes, I was putting in those hours, but a lot of those hours were like massively writing and drafting and negotiating and then submitting and being so exhausted that I would then realize that there were errors all over the deal, documents going back, having to correct them and then so. So it would have actually been a lot better had I worked less, slept more, and been able to do the job much more efficiently and effectively with far fewer errors in less time. But it just wasn't the culture. And I was trying to prove myself in a culture that I was stepping into. So it is really interesting when you start to question these assumptions. And I think even if you come up with the same answers like it is, what it is like, now is the moment to question everything, because we all are and and we do have more power to change. And I think that the, the senior executives are re-examining everything as well.

Karen Wright: [00:11:31] I hope many are. I don't know that they all are, but I certainly hope many are. I'm thrilled that this individual resigned. I think that if she could see that this was just not sustainable and not something that had that had the potential to ever make her happy, then clearly there was just no point in sticking around. So whether it was a reactive move or a or courageous move or some combination of the two. I think it's fantastic that she leaped.

Jonathan Fields: [00:11:57] Yeah, I so agree with that was I had these other flashbacks again to my time. Um, when I was in the law, I actually took a leave of absence because I was so burned out. I was so unhealthy. I was literally hospitalized during that period that I actually knew that I did not have the ability to make a rational decision. So I knew that before I decided whether to quit or reimagine what I was doing, I had to just pull away from the environment and and took a month to just recover a little bit my mental health and my physical health, until I was at a place where I felt like I was even capable of making a more long term decision. Um, and I feel like that's actually happening. So I don't know if this was Trisha's case. It sounds like she she made a decision to pull away knowing that she had a certain window of time. So she wasn't just saying yes to the next thing she was saying. Let me take a step back and do some breathing. And I'm guessing probably some recovering and some re-imagining, which maybe some sleeping. Yeah. Some sleeping. Um, my sense is a lot of people are doing that, even if it's in the guise of taking a, quote, interim job, which is fairly innocuous and isn't asking a ton of them, pays the rent and just gives them a lot more room to breathe and figure out, like what's really coming next. I'm curious whether you're seeing that at all in the marketplace.

Karen Wright: [00:13:18] I've. What is it? Tuesday. I've had two conversations this week already. Three, actually, with senior level individuals. Um, two out of three. Two women, one man. So, you know, whatever that means. But I am hearing more and more people saying, you know what, um, the money isn't worth it. And so, you know what I was reflecting on in what what Tricia was saying is that nowhere in her value set was money or sort of financial success or accomplishment on that level. And, you know, not that it's not important, but I think financial measurement has to be a really strong driving value in order to sacrifice the physical, the relationship, the, you know, all of that. So so yes, I'm hearing it. I'm hearing senior level people saying, I think I'm gonna dial it down. I think I'm going to step back into a role that's a little bit less demanding. I want more time with my family. I'm never going to get this time with my kids this age ever again. I can't sustain the pace. I'm, you know, I'm just I. And the one client said yesterday, she said, I'm always coming in hot and I just don't want to be. I just don't want to be living that way anymore, you know? And she could see it like, it's almost like she stepped outside of herself for a minute and she could just see this kind of white lightning screeching in, and she's like, nope, I'm done. I can't, that's not how I want to live.

Jonathan Fields: [00:14:35] Mhm. Yeah. It is amazing how sometimes there's this gradual, gradual, gradual thing building and then there's a moment of clarity that just snaps and it's like oh wow, things have to change. Um, sometimes it's traumatic and sometimes it's just a moment of clarity that comes like you described it. Something happens where for a moment you gain this ability to zoom the lens out and get a little like, look down on yourself. And you're like, that really is my life. Yeah.

Karen Wright: [00:15:01] Yeah, exactly.

Jonathan Fields: [00:15:02] And sometimes you're happy about it, but sometimes you're really not.

Karen Wright: [00:15:04] I have another client who has twin boys. They're, I don't know, 10 or 11. And I don't know what possessed him, but I think he missed a major event. And then he did some calculations and realized that he's only got X number of more Halloweens and X number of more March breaks and X number, you know. And he just realized if I don't take advantage of those now, I'm going to miss them completely. Yeah. So yeah, whatever the impetus is, I'm it is it is a courageous thing to follow through on that reflection with a decision.

Jonathan Fields: [00:15:31] Yeah. That, um, that story actually just really resonated with me. Um, you know, I have, of course, a daughter who's in college now, and, uh, and I made a decision a chunk of years back, um, to leap, potentially leave money and opportunity on the table in the name of the opportunity to just be present and engaged in her life. For, you know, the early days and I think so many of us make the reverse decision. But I'm like, I have, you know, like we have our whole lives, God willing, together, like after this. But it's a fairly short amount of time that we get, you know, if you have the opportunity to be a parent with those kids while they're at an age where they actually still really want you, like, regularly engaged and involved. And yes, and we had we do have, like the entire rest of our lives, in theory, to do the thing called work. So it's interesting, I think so many people are asking all these questions right now, and the way that they, they just didn't on the same level. I want to offer one other thing before we sort of like moving to some of the other things that Tricia brought up, which is that neither you or I are are saying there's anything wrong with having really strong values around making money. Sure. It's important. Um, and depending on our history, you know, we may bring things to association with money that are very real and very critical. And we want the stability. We want the sense of security that we feel like it gives us. So we're not knocking that in any way, shape or form.

Karen Wright: [00:17:00] No, not at all. And in money means different things to different people. And for some people it's flexibility and other people it's security. And whatever it is, it's a measuring stick by which we determine whether or not we're okay. And so when someone makes a decision like Tricia did, to leave a stable job in the kind of business that she was in, I presume that on some level she said to herself, I'm, I'm okay, or I know I can be okay. Which in that in and of itself is very, very powerful.

Jonathan Fields: [00:17:25] Yeah, I love that. Um, whether, you know, she banked money to take care of her or she just she's financially okay, or sometimes I think jobs like that, as brutal as they are, they allow you to realize that you have the capacity to work really hard and be really competent. And if not in this particular role, you can't. There's a voice in you that says, I know I'm capable of stepping into something else and succeeding and generating whatever it is I need to sustain myself.

Karen Wright: [00:17:56] Yeah, I have that conversation with clients a lot, just around the idea that, you know, you have the capacity, whatever it takes, you'll do it. You've already proven that. So you can pick that same ability, that same value set up and move it someplace else. And you're, you know, you're going to work hard and you're going to be successful because that's who you are.

Jonathan Fields: [00:18:14] Yeah, I love that. So Tricia shared with us that her primary Sparketype is the Maven. So that's all about a love of learning, knowledge acquisition. Just devour, devour anything you can purely because of the love for the.

Karen Wright: [00:18:27] Sake of it. Yeah.

Jonathan Fields: [00:18:29] Um, her shadow or her, quote, runner up Sparketype was the sage. And that impulse is all about illumination. It's about sharing what you know. So the pairing of a maven and a sage is actually really that can be a super powerful pairing. And her anti Sparketype, which is the heaviest lift, you know, it's the thing that takes the most out of you for her was the the scientist, which is problem solving, complex figuring things out, which is really interesting. And then she's, you know, so she starts a podcast and it sounds like she's loving doing it. Right. Um, it's more of a passion project for her right now. And she's sort of like asking the question, like how? How do these impulses like, are there particular jobs or industries or roles where you're like, like, I can I can look and accommodate this? And you and I both have had this conversation, you know, like around pigeonholing particular Sparketypes into particular titles or roles, not always are necessarily the best thing. In fact, very often not good at all.

Karen Wright: [00:19:27] I agreed.

Jonathan Fields: [00:19:28] That said, the Maven also often has an interesting quirk when it comes time to earn a living around this impulse because it is the most process fulfilled of all the impulses. Meaning you can generally lose yourself in the process of learning and discovery and fascination. You could do that all day, every day. And it doesn't innately necessarily generate value for other people just by your following, your love of learning. So there's got if you want to actually center this as a way to earn a living, you've got to somehow figure out how how is this creating value for other people? And that's where her sage comes in in a really interesting way, almost like as a funding mechanism for her ability to just go deep into topics that she's, she's curious about. Um, how does that land with you?

Karen Wright: [00:20:22] I'd never really thought of it that way, but that makes great sense. I mean, certainly to have created a podcast and I mean chicken and egg, we don't know just exactly how the sort of podcast she's hosting came to be, but it certainly sounds well suited to the to the Maven type in that, she says, it's it's culture and personal development and, you know, it's got there's a whole lot of categories of learning and interests that could potentially fall into this, this podcast. So to be motivated to share, to be motivated to have impact, illuminate with that, with that secondary Sparketype. Yeah. Great combination. I've never really thought of it that way.

Jonathan Fields: [00:21:01] Yeah. I mean, I think that that pairing tends to work really well together. But you, you know, you're always aware of the fact that the larger drive is you just want to learn. You just love it. And being able to turn around and share what you're learning, um, can often offer value to people. Um, it's interesting also in the context of the role that she had before, like chief of staff being a maven and and being a sage. So someone who loves to learn and someone who loves to share what they're learning, it doesn't feel like to me on the surface that that role, chief of staff to a senior executive, would give much of an opportunity to express either of those impulses in a meaningful way.

Karen Wright: [00:21:41] I mean, it's possible that she could have been in a situation where she had, um, she had exposure to a lot of different things, so that might have satisfied them.

Jonathan Fields: [00:21:50] Right.

Karen Wright: [00:21:51] The Maven a little bit. Very unlikely. The sage was honored at all, particularly at a, at a relatively sort of not at a sea level role. But yeah, I mean, the thing that struck me is that oftentimes the chief of staff is really about problem solving, and that scientist is a heavy lift. Little wonder she was feeling drained.

Jonathan Fields: [00:22:08] Yeah.

Karen Wright: [00:22:09] And I mean, the physical demands, the long week and so on notwithstanding, there was a pretty good chance she was spending a whole lot of time doing something that really does drain her.

Jonathan Fields: [00:22:17] Right.Because you have the the ability to learn, but then a stifled ability to turn around and share what she's learning in a meaningful way, and then spending a lot of time doing the very type of work that is most likely to deplete you. Right. And then working so many hours, it's very hard to replete your tank once you get into that space. Yeah, it seems I kind of love that she stepped away.

Karen Wright: [00:22:42] Yeah, I it was I think it was exactly the right choice.

Jonathan Fields: [00:22:45] Yeah. Yeah. That's fantastic.So now she's sort of like saying, I'm in this moment where I'm reimagining and and the podcast. It's kind of cool. It's letting me learn, it's letting me turn around and share. And a lot of the podcast puzzle has been kind of figured out. There is a fairly straightforward way of doing it. So the scientist isn't overly taxed in her, but now she's asking the question, okay, but like now I'm ready. I have to step back into the workforce at this point. Like I have to actually do something to start supporting myself and her. So her final question that we're circling around to was really this one of are there very specific types of jobs that I could look for here? And, and the answer is, in my mind, we always have to be really careful about saying this is my type. And these are like the five jobs that are appropriate for me, because the truth is, the Sparketypes are more about how we bring ourselves to any given role, any given title, any given opportunity or team, rather than the nature of the title or the job description itself. I'm guessing you've seen that show up in so many different ways in your client work.

Karen Wright: [00:23:43] So many.

Karen Wright: [00:23:44] So many. I mean, it really boils down to what are the attributes of an ideal work situation that map well to your Sparketype and then go looking for those attributes. And those attributes can show up in lots of different industries and lots of different functions. And I would offer that there are probably certain kinds of roles in industries that map well to that appetite for learning. And so advertising and public relations and anything that sort of client centered where you have to even my work as an executive coach, I mean, I get to satisfy any maven tendencies I might have, because at any given day I'm in 6 or 8 different industries. Right. So anything that by definition exposes you to a lot of variety, and oftentimes those are sort of client oriented or customer oriented sorts of situations. But that's what I mean by you look for what's the characteristic of the work environment or the work itself that would connect well with that primary type.

Jonathan Fields: [00:24:41] Yeah. So it's kind of a bit of a good news, bad news answer like.

Jonathan Fields: [00:24:45] The good news? Yeah. It's like the good.

Jonathan Fields: [00:24:46] News is the universe is really your realm of possibility. And the bad news is that's a whole. It doesn't make it necessarily easier to pick, like where you might step back into it. But I'm curious how you feel about this. Also, what I've seen in the past with myself and with friends is that if we spend a chunk of time in a particular industry and then we take time away from it, and then, you know, we're sort of looking to step back into something, it's not unusual for us to look first at that industry simply because it's what we know. We have a track record there, we have history there. It's like there's a bit of a comfort thing in going back into it that makes us feel like maybe and maybe even because we have that pedigree, the job market is more open to us because they can they can see what like square, you know, like we fit into.

Jonathan Fields: [00:25:35] Yeah.

Jonathan Fields: [00:25:35] How would you how would you counsel someone on potentially being more expansive when you when, when you probably very truly do have an easier first step in going back into that same industry, even in a different role. Or is that okay?

Karen Wright: [00:25:52] Actually, I mean, it's only okay if you can find a really different situation. You know, I do have examples of people who have been miserable in a particular job in a particular industry and found a similar job in the same industry, but an entirely different environment, a company culture, an office situation, whatever it is. Right? So it is possible, but you have to be really self-aware and say, what was it about that situation that didn't work for me, and how do I correct for that? How do I really keep my radar up and hyper attuned to falling into some of those traps? But the other thing that's important whenever you're trying to make a little bit of a change in course career wise, is that you have to be the one to tell your own story. If you just lay out your LinkedIn profile and your resume or whatever, and allow the person on the other side of the desk to to read it and draw their own conclusions, You're really letting go of the interpretation. And so I think the real opportunity here, and probably her experience with the podcast and her her maven tendencies can really help her in this regard, find a way to tell the story that highlights the things you want to highlight, and showcases the things that are uniquely you, that you can bring into a role. Don't just be passive and let someone interpret as they might, just from the facts on the page.

Jonathan Fields: [00:27:10] Yeah, I love that. And I love that you brought it back to the podcast, because that's exactly what popped into my head as you were talking. Also, I'm like that whatever is interesting to you to explore and to center as a topic for the podcast, probably giving a lot of hints about like industries or companies or like domains that would be interesting for you to explore opportunities in, because if you're interested in just learning a ton about a particular question or an industry or a problem, follow that thread and say like, what opportunities are connected to that where I could literally show up and get paid to maybe even deepen into all the same stuff that I'm exploring, just for the fun of it, for the podcast, but actually turn that into like what I'm doing for work.

Karen Wright: [00:27:49] Well, and I think there's even an avenue for the podcast itself around the guests you invite on the the topics you explore, the questions you pose to your audience. It's, you know, so who's done a career pivot? How did you figure it out? What was what worked? What didn't work? You know, what's the most startling change in direction you've seen someone do? Um, you know, you can have some fun with it. Just given that she's got a platform, she doesn't say how big it is. She does make it pretty clear that it's really just sort of recreational, but it's still a platform. She could she could probably find some things, learn some things that are useful for her and have some fun with it.

Jonathan Fields: [00:28:24] 100%, you know, like being in the podcast space for a decade now. One of the things that I learned really early on is it just it gives you access to so many different people who you would like to learn from. You know, like with our other show, Good Life Project. a big part of the mission for the entire ten years so far has been to find what I call embodied teachers, people who are not just writing about or talking about, but living something that in some way demonstrates that they've figured out a piece of the good life puzzle and sit down with them and say, so what do you know? Like, um, and so the podcast for For Patricia may be just an amazing opportunity to do that, you know, to have access to all these different people.

Jonathan Fields: [00:29:05] Yeah.

Karen Wright: [00:29:05] Yeah, I really think so.

Jonathan Fields: [00:29:06] Love it. Awesome. As always. It's great to talk with you. I love the questions. I love all the different nuance we were able to get into. And Tricia, I hope this was useful for you.

Jonathan Fields: [00:29:14] Thank you Karen.

Karen Wright: [00:29:15] Yea, Tricia, good luck.

Jonathan Fields: [00:29:17] And yeah and stay in touch. Let us know how everything unfolds and we will see you all next week. Take care.

Karen Wright: [00:29:24] Thanks, Jonathan.

Jonathan Fields: [00:29:27] Hey, so I hope you enjoyed that conversation. Learned a little something about your own quest to come alive and work in life, and maybe feel a little bit less alone along this journey to find and do what sparks you. And if you'd love to share your own moment and question with us. We would love to hear from you. Just go ahead and click on the submissions link in the show notes to get the details on how to do that. And remember, if you're at a moment of exploration, looking to find and do or even create work that makes you come more fully alive, that brings more meaning and purpose and joy into your life. Take the time to discover your own personal Sparketype for free at sparketype.com. It'll open your eyes to a deeper understanding of yourself and open the door to possibility like never before. And hey, if you're finding value in these conversations, please just take an extra second right now to follow and rate SPARKED in your favorite podcast app. This is so helpful in helping others find the show and growing our community so that we can all come alive and work in life together. Until next time. I'm Jonathan Fields and this is SPARKED.