How to Speak Up without Burning Bridges

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Jonathan Fields (00:00:30) - Have you ever really wanted to express your needs but held back for fear of rocking the boat only to eventually explode and regret the fallout? So how do you stand up for yourself without compromising important relationships, values and commitments? We have all been there, silently bearing mistreatment or lashing out in anger when we just can't take it anymore. Navigating the messiness of holding people and systems accountable without damaging relationships can feel next to impossible. Which is why it's so important to have tools that really empower you to speak up for yourself in a way that strengthens relationships instead of severing them. And that's where we're heading in today's Hot Take episode of SPARKED. And to help tease out the topic and offer expertise and insights, we are joined by Sparked Brain Trust member Yvonne Ator. So Yvonne is the founder of Thriving Physicians and Thriving Idealists, where she coaches heart centered, mission driven physicians and other helping professionals who seek to make a positive impact in the world.

Jonathan Fields (00:01:38) - And today we're asking the question How can we speak up for our needs and boundaries without severing ties or burning bridges? And at the same time maintain awareness of unsafe situations that we need to remove ourselves from completely if called to. So it can be tricky to navigate this territory, but with supportive strategies, it is possible and in fact imperative to speak up against violations and hold people accountable with integrity. In this conversation, we dig into the messiness and nuance of these situations things like power, inequities, values, conflicts and high stakes, and also unpack how to channel anger productively and provide feedback in a way that allows for change instead of shutting it down. Excited to share this conversation with you and hope it offers you valuable insights next time you're navigating this terrain in work in life. I'm Jonathan Fields and this is SPARKED. Hey, before we dive into today's show, you know, we've learned that a lot of our listeners are sort of at this moment where they're really exploring the notion of work in their lives and their next moves in their careers.

Jonathan Fields (00:02:50) - And if you are in that place, we talk about the spark and the sparketypes a lot on this show, this body of work that we've developed to help you really identify what makes you come alive and how to apply that to the world of work. We've heard from a lot of folks that they would also love some help along that journey. If you're curious, you can also find on our website a directory of Certified Sparketype Advisors who know this body of work and can really help coach and guide you through it. So we'll drop a link to the show notes in that right now. And if it feels interesting to you and you just like somebody to help guide you through this next part of your career or work journey, take a look and see if somebody resonates. It might be the perfect fit to help you along this next leg of your journey. Again, that link is in the show notes now.

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Jonathan Fields (00:04:09) - Yvonne Ator. It is awesome to be back in conversation with you. Newer and esteemed member of the Sparked Brain Trust. Today is one of our Sparked Hot Take episodes where we take on one topic that we're seeing in our client work in the world and the world of work in the zeitgeist. And we go deep into it. And there's something that you have been seeing a lot of and a lot of us have been seeing it. But I think it's coming up in your practice with your clients and you're also seeing this phenomenon in the work world and in the world at large that I think we need to actually dive into. So you want to tee this up for us today?

Yvonne Ator (00:04:43) - Yeah, sure. So what I've been seeing with my. Hi, everybody, what I've been seeing with my clients and I think looking out into the world and the zeitgeist as well, is this idea of how do you hold people accountable without shaming them, without canceling them.

Yvonne Ator (00:04:59) - How can you speak up for yourself, speak up for your needs and your boundaries in a way that's aligned for you with with your values? How do you do so without blowing up the relationships? A lot of times people find that they've been taking it and taking it and taking it, whatever that it is, whether it's violation of boundaries, whether it's overwork, whether it's just needs not being met. How do you go from just taking it and taking it and then exploding to being able to express your needs or express your boundaries in a way that's aligned for you without blowing up the relationship, whether it's a work relationship or a love relationship or parenting relationship, How do you express your needs? How do you express your boundaries? How do you hold the people in your life accountable or the systems in your life accountable without blowing everything up?

Jonathan Fields (00:05:50) - Yeah, and this is such a rich topic, I think, in part because we're seeing it all over the place in the world of work and personal relationships and society and culture and politics all over.

Jonathan Fields (00:06:00) - And one of the impulses I think, for a lot of people is to blow it up. Yes. Because and I think in no small part, because that's kind of the only thing that we we ever understood was the option. You know, we're just like, if it isn't working, you either need to walk away or blow it up or burn the ships. And that's just that's what you do. And what we're seeing actually is something different, is something where people are saying, how do I actually keep what's good and right and supportive about this without having to feel like I have to either walk away or blow it up, but remedy the nature of what I've been dealing with. Step back into a place of power and agency and be the way I want to be and say the things that I need to say and then be able to move on and affect change in multiple ways before we get into some of the ideas around like the how of some of this, because I know you have ideas there.

Jonathan Fields (00:06:51) - What are some of the different like share some examples of what we're talking about that you're seeing other clients obviously anonymously or just workplace or in the world? Because I know that that you're seeing a lot of this context.

Yvonne Ator (00:07:03) - So personally or client wise, it would be someone who's been working extra shifts, who has been assigned to work on holidays while others go, you know, because this person is probably more introverted or quieter or more agreeable or even sometimes the person is more devoted, is seen as someone who will take one for the team. Right? Those people who will show up for the team, take one for the team who is always volunteering or who is dependable. And people can count on those people. And nameless, of course, anonymous, of course, end up being the ones who are assigned to holidays without their permissions or or getting less vacations. And because they're agreeable, because they believe in the mission, because they really care about the patients or the clients, or in this case, patients, they will say yes, right? Or they'll say, okay.

Yvonne Ator (00:07:54) - And then so they give what I what what Brené often calls the dirty. Yes. Right. Where it's like you say. Yes. And then like you go home and you're resentful and and I'm always like, just say a clean no rather than the dirty. Yes. So they give their dirty yeses, they comply, they conform. Yes, yes, yes. They go along. They take on the extra burdens, the extra shifts, neglect their families, and then end up realizing, okay, like I'm starting to feel really resentful. So on the client side, I'm seeing a lot of that where people have needs, that they're not expressing boundaries that they're maybe they've expressed and because they're the agreeable kind people just kind of like, you know, dismiss or trivialize what they're saying. So it's not like they're not speaking up. It's that they're speaking up, but they feel unheard, unseen. And because people know that they'll go along, they just kind of dismiss the concerns and just put it on anyway, because this person will always follow through, even if it means sacrificing themselves.

Yvonne Ator (00:08:56) - And then in the general guide guys, we're seeing it with, you know, the you know, whether you're on his side or not, you know, Trump, Trump being indicted again. And, you know, whether it's. Lizzo being sued by her dancers. You're seeing the Montgomery River brawl where a group of people are like, we're not taking this abuse anymore. We're going to fight back. Right? There are different examples of that in the media, but there's this general sense of people have had enough. But the problem that I'm seeing is that because people don't have the skills to express, to even rumble with the emotions, the difficult emotions experiencing when things don't go their way, and especially rumbling with anger. If you don't know how to rumble with difficult emotions, including anger or anxiety, then you just you take it and take it. And then when you can't take it anymore, you can either shut down or completely explode. And so that's what we're seeing. People don't have the skills or the bandwidth to even contain themselves any longer.

Yvonne Ator (00:09:56) - And you're having people now like wanting to hold people accountable. Now you can I've seen people do it in a really nice way. I mean, really not nice, but like in an assertive but respectful way, like Coco Gauff did a few days ago with tennis holding the referee accountable for some calls or not calling some calls that they should have called. And that was really, really well done. So some people are able to do it if they have the skills and the practice. But others, you know, blow up and end up in a brawl like you saw with with with a Montgomery brawl.

Jonathan Fields (00:10:30) - Yeah. I mean, it was so interesting. A lot of people are talking about that Coco golf example. Right. For those who don't know, by the way, she's this absolutely stunning tennis player. I don't know if she's ranked number one these days, but she's pretty close to it. It was at the US Open and she was playing in a match. And I guess her opponent was sort of like really moving slowly.

Jonathan Fields (00:10:48) - And that's actually a violation in tennis rules. And and the person on the chair wasn't calling it. And eventually Coco just really she just was like, this is just not okay. And she went up and she started arguing the point. But it was interesting to watch because the whole thing was televised. Yeah. You know, and she was being she was being strong. She was being assertive. She was being, like, making sense and like, saying like, this is the thing that's happening here. And like, I'm like, this can't keep happening because it's not okay. And it's against the rules. Interestingly, that, like, the the person who was on the chair was engaging in this sort of like, rational conversation with her. And then eventually shortly after that, it started getting called. And what was interesting to me was not just seeing that example, but also oftentimes when you see something like that, you know, like the follow on on social media is some sort of blowback. Yes.

Jonathan Fields (00:11:42) - But what you saw pretty universally, yes, at least in my feeds, was really tremendous support for.

Yvonne Ator (00:11:49) - Yes. Yes.

Jonathan Fields (00:11:50) - Saying like this is what needs to happen now. And she she like she really it was a beautiful example of how to do this in integrity. Yes. And I felt like even the reaction to it was interesting because it felt like it was different than what we've seen in the past.

Yvonne Ator (00:12:06) - I agree. And you know what I was thinking about when I was watching her? I was actually I had some trepidation because because, you know, she's also I don't know if she's African American or African. I don't know where she's from. But but she she's black. And I had some trepidation watching it initially because I was like, who gets to speak up and who gets to hold the powers that be accountable? For some people, it's acceptable and for some people is not. And I'm seeing the same thing in, you know, with with medicine where, you know, a lot of people, you know, nurses and nurse practitioners and other health care workers have been able to to unionize and go on strike for for the things they care about.

Yvonne Ator (00:12:42) - And historically, traditionally, physicians are not able to we're not able to do that. And now you're seeing that for the first time, like physicians, not just residents, but actual attending physicians are. Now, I saw in the news, you know, the Alina, that physicians there are filing to unionize. Right. So that their their rights and their needs can be met, whether it's understaffing and, you know, having that lack of autonomy and all of that and having to bow to the powers that be rather than look at the best interests of the patient. Right. It's like, enough is enough. But how do you do that in a way that's aligned so very much? You know, as I was looking at Coco, I was thinking, who gets to hold people accountable and be respected for it as opposed to be vilified for holding people accountable? Because I was thinking about Serena and how she got into so much trouble every time she tried and tried to every time she tried to have any kind of accountability.

Yvonne Ator (00:13:37) - So how do you who gets to speak up and do that in a way that's aligned for them and also is respected? And how can you do that? How can you feel safe doing it? Right, Because most people don't speak up because they're afraid of. Right. Getting punished for speaking up. Yeah. And so there are real reasons why people don't express their boundaries, especially in work situations. And then if you're in any kind of minority group, whether LGBTQ or bipoc, right. Or being, you know, a woman or any gender. There are lots of reasons why people don't speak up, but it's still important to speak up. So how do you do that?

Jonathan Fields (00:14:15) - Yeah, and you bring up an important point, right? We've talked about different examples in culture, but in the workplace, especially if you're somebody where you feel like you don't there's a power in equity, what you're doing right. And you really, really need this job. Yes. That you're going to be compelled to probably not speak up because your sense is either there's nothing I can do about it or there may be retribution or you may lose your job.

Jonathan Fields (00:14:44) - And your values are saying like, maybe it's two jobs that you're working and you're just getting by trying to take care of a family. And like the thought of you're constantly doing this balancing act there, trade offs, your head is saying, okay, so on the one hand, I'm putting up with this situation, that's that's really just not okay. On the other hand, I have a deep value around taking care of and providing for my family and how do I balance this. So it's complicated. It is complicated. You'd like to say like, oh, just jettison it, Just walk away. Just say what you have to say. But the real world scenario, especially in the work context, especially when there is this perception or and reality of a power inequity and then values that are sometimes not playing nicely. It's messy, you know, it's not as clean as a lot of people would make it. So take me a little bit into some of the ideas around like, how do we actually deal with these scenarios and what are some of the things that like in conversation that you're that are coming up and some of the ideas or strategies or tools that we might think about here?

Yvonne Ator (00:15:45) - Yeah.

Yvonne Ator (00:15:46) - Well, you know, if it's Yvonne, she's going to talk about values. It just is what it is.

Jonathan Fields (00:15:52) - It's part of the conversation.

Yvonne Ator (00:15:54) - It's part of the conversation. But I think, number one, really, when you're clear about what your values are, even in the face of of being punished or facing some kind of retribution for speaking up if your values. And so being clear about your values, number one. And then when you're clear, then you can see how they're being violated. A lot of times when we're angry is because our values have values or boundaries have been violated or a need or expectation has not been met. So if you find yourself rumbling with difficult emotions, especially anger particularly, which is what I'm seeing a lot of, there's a lot of anger in the zeitgeist right now. Chances are either a need, an expectation or an expectation has not been met or a value or boundary has been violated. So when you're clear about your values, it kind of helps you understand like what you're feeling, because a lot of times you're feeling things and you don't even know what you're feeling.

Yvonne Ator (00:16:47) - So first of all, being able to rumble with that anger, really being curious about what you're feeling. Is it anger? Is it grief? Is it frustration? Is it disappointment? Can you name the feeling? So one of the first skills I always talk about is, you know, can you name the feelings? Do you have you have to develop somewhat of an emotional vocabulary or repertoire. So you know what you're actually feeling. And then when you can name that feeling, then you know what to do about it. So if the feeling is anger, usually, again, like I just described, the things that are being violated or needs not being met, anger can be a really powerful catalyst for like social justice or accountability, right? It's not it's not bad to be angry. I know a lot of a lot of people in certain faith spaces, you know, have a stigma attached to anger. But learning to respect your emotions and honor your emotions and using them as signals is really important in this conversation.

Yvonne Ator (00:17:44) - So if you're feeling angry, it's okay. It's okay. You know, being okay with your emotions, feeling the emotions, not bypassing them because that's how you end up blowing up later. So learning to name the emotions and then if it's anger really getting underneath the emotion because anger is usually a secondary emotion masking something else. So what's underneath the anger? Is it that you're frustrated or you're disappointed? Right. So being able to go underneath the anger and see what exactly is there. And then as you think about what's been violated, what values have been violated or what boundaries have been violated, so boundary we describe as what's okay, what's not okay, what's acceptable, what's not acceptable. Can you actually name the values that have been violated here as your need for family time? Like if family is important to you as a value, is that being violated? Are you working extra time? Is that what's upsetting you or is there a boundary there around, you know, like it's not okay to speak to me this way and you're being spoken to like that at work or wherever you are, right? So what are the can you actually name what's going on? And then right then we can again, we don't want to armor up, which is like go out with the self protective stance where you're lashing out or attacking or maybe you're shutting down all the ways in which we try to protect ourselves.

Yvonne Ator (00:19:02) - But can you show up with your values in place and express yourself in a way that's aligned? So what I always tell my people is that. So you don't have to show up in shame, people. There's a difference between behavior and identity, right? So so when you start saying you are stupid or you're, you're, you're bigoted or whatever, when you start going with you are you're this, then you're kind of shaming someone. You're making that about the identity and there's nothing you can really do about identity. But when you can say, here's a behavior that that is happening that I don't like, right? Whether it's your over scheduling me on weekends or on holidays and I'm seeing that you're not doing this for someone else. Right? Being able to name specific behaviors. Right. That they can actually do something about as opposed to blanket statements about how, you know, you're you are whatever insert expletive here. So being able to name the behavior and then bringing in the values. Right. And so if it's an organization, we say community is important to us.

Yvonne Ator (00:20:04) - In what ways are you violating this value? We say the well-being of our workers is important to us. In what ways are you know, what does it look like for someone's well-being when they're not taking bathroom breaks? Right. I have I've had clients. I've had to work with clients who don't take bathroom breaks because there's no time. Right? I'm like, this is actually like a universal, like health, like human right to actually be able to to take a break and eat, eat, eat a meal or use a bathroom. I have a lot of clients who have had to teach to take bathroom breaks like like take ten minutes to go to the bathroom. Right. So if we say that these values are important to us, here are the ways in which we're violating them and here are the ways in which we can come back into alignment. So that's kind of how I like to deal with this, holding people accountable, not just, you know, attacking or shaming or canceling people, but saying, here's what you said is important to you right here is what you said is important to you as an organization or as a supervisor or as a partner.

Yvonne Ator (00:21:07) - Right. And here's the way. Here are the ways in which you're violating them. Even my kids do that with me, right? They'll come to me and say.

Jonathan Fields (00:21:15) - You've taught them.

Yvonne Ator (00:21:16) - Well. They'll say.

Yvonne Ator (00:21:17) - Mom, you say, you say you're an empath. You say empathy is important. Here are the ways.

Yvonne Ator (00:21:22) - In which you're not listening.

Jonathan Fields (00:21:26) - Busted.

Yvonne Ator (00:21:27) - Oh yeah.

Yvonne Ator (00:21:28) - They have the language and they. They bust me every time.

Jonathan Fields (00:21:31) - That's amazing. I love that. I mean, there are so many great things in there like and you laid out a really nice kind of linear process, like, think about this and this and this and this. I want to tease out one thing, the distinction or the relationship between boundaries and values. Yes. Yes. So talk to me a little bit more about this. This is.

Yvonne Ator (00:21:49) - Actually what so I did a little dance because it's one of my favorite things to think.

Yvonne Ator (00:21:53) - About or talk about.

Yvonne Ator (00:21:55) - So I always look at values as the map, right? The lay of the land.

Yvonne Ator (00:22:00) - So it's like this. It's your GPS, and it's also they talk about values being the guiding lights. I like to think about them as like territorial, like map. Like, here's what I stand for, here's who I am. Right? And I always say it's very hard to set boundaries if you don't know what your values are because the boundaries are the fence around the yard, right? At least from Henry Cloud and Townsend's book on boundaries. I just remember that that visual of boundaries being like this fence around the yard. And I always say that if you don't know what your values are, if you don't know where your territory starts and ends, where will the fence go? Right? So if you know that family is important to you, then what's okay, What's not okay in terms of your thoughts around family, is it okay for me to work like 80 hour weeks? Not if I say family is important to me. Right? So when you're clear about your values, if you're if your value is creativity, then it becomes very clear.

Yvonne Ator (00:23:02) - Is it okay to go for weeks without practicing guitar or for weeks without creating anything? What's okay and what's not okay? Right. So when you're clear about the values, the lay of the land, the map, the territory that's that represents what you stand for, where you stand, then you know where to set up the fence, you know, then you know, also when that fence has been knocked down or violated in any kind of way because you're clear about what your line is. The problem is that when we don't know what our values are and then we're mad and we don't know why, it's it's very difficult to express those boundaries and to let people know why we're upset. So taking that extra time to check in within and put pen to paper and, and express what those values are really helps with the boundary setting. So that's what I teach my people.

Jonathan Fields (00:23:51) - Yeah, I love that and I love that. I've never really heard that relationship described that way, but it's a it just like it creates this visual where you're like, Oh, that makes total sense.

Jonathan Fields (00:24:00) - How could you possibly know like what the boundaries are until you know what the terrain is that's being bound? That's. I mean, it's so interesting and I don't want to skip over. The one other thing that you mentioned, which is this distinction between the behavior and the identity, because I feel like a lot of times our natural impulse is to just conflate the two. Yes. You know, like and we conflate them into identity, not into behavior. Yes. We're basically just like, if we're going to go one way or the other, we're just like, this person is a dot, dot, dot this person. You know, rather than saying like, this person did this thing, which isn't okay. And like you said, there's actually a really when you're trying to not just attack or not just end the thing, but actually trying to come to some sort of agreement or resolution and move forward. It's really important to distinguish the two because if you can't, it makes that so much harder.

Yvonne Ator (00:24:53) - Yeah.

Yvonne Ator (00:24:53) - You know, when the George Floyd situation happened and, you know, everyone's on their work journey, journey to that's whatever that looks like. And it was very for me, it was kind of stressful to see how people were being labeled, you know, like, this person is a racist and this person is a racist and this person is a racist. And you know, and then that gives that person no room to change the behavior because they don't know what they're doing that is, quote unquote, racist. But when you say, here's what you said and here's how it landed, it made me feel or it just sounded tone deaf. And here, you know, here are some resources. You go do your homework, right? Then they have action items. They actually have an action plan, right? When you just label someone, then there's there's nowhere to go. Okay, you're a racist now what? Right then you've written them off. So I really feel that if we can just take the extra time to look at the behavior that we find, whether it's offensive or hurtful or harmful in any way, name the behavior and then present that behavior to that person, then they have a way forward.

Yvonne Ator (00:26:09) - Then they can do something about that. I mean, there's so many resources, you know, okay, what does anti-racist mean? Right. And like, they can actually look up resources and start to change their behavior. I feel actually I feel emotion coming up. I feel very frustrated when I see people lumped into these categories. It's dehumanizing. And when we dehumanize someone else, we also dehumanize ourselves because there's no common ground to even have a conversation. Once I've put you in that box, you're there and I'm here now. It's awesome. Them as opposed to here's the behavior. I might not have the bandwidth to help you walk that road, but here's what you can go do to work on that behavior. Right? There's a way forward and there's hope. Yeah.

Jonathan Fields (00:26:52) - I mean, so powerful to make that distinction. And because there's it creates a path for change. Yes. Path for reconciliation. A path for redemption rather than just saying this is done like it's over. Right. And like at the end of the day, like it doesn't really serve what you're trying to accomplish and get you the feeling that you want to feel grounded sometimes.

Jonathan Fields (00:27:16) - And meta thing here. Also, there will be circumstances where you do need to walk away. Absolutely. Just immediately leave for purpose of safety. Yeah, like there will be if there is something truly toxic and there is present harm, like clearly remove yourself to safety.

Yvonne Ator (00:27:35) - Absolutely.

Jonathan Fields (00:27:35) - And you know, like there will be many other situations where a lot of what we're talking about here, you know, may present an alternative way forward for you or maybe even this becomes a two step process where first you remove yourself to safety and then from a place of safety and maybe recovery to a certain extent. If you see that there is some potential to reengage and move forward in a way that is not harmful to you and maybe holds you see there's some some possibility of resolution, then maybe like some of the steps that you were talking about is almost like an act to, you know, to that first step. But like, I think it's also important to just acknowledge, you know, if you are that person where you need to remove yourself for safety, do it.

Jonathan Fields (00:28:20) - You know, don't don't wait. And that's real. And it happens. And it's a part of, you know, the experience that you on your own unique level need to consider. So any final thoughts around this topic as we wrap it up?

Yvonne Ator (00:28:32) - I'm so glad you brought up what you did about around safety and and I realize I didn't mention the thing I always talk about, which is the idea of inner authority, which is that you check in with your relationship with yourself first. Right? I guess the holding people accountable is kind of like the second step because the real the first person you want to hold accountable is yourself. Right. And so am I taking care of myself? Am I living my values in my relationship with myself and my serving myself? Right. You want to serve others? Am I am I serving myself first? Right. And my filling up my cup first and my. Creating with myself first, right? Am I like spending my family time? You know, am I having time to myself first before focusing on time with other people? So always making sure that you're working from the inside out as opposed to the outside end.

Yvonne Ator (00:29:21) - So if you don't feel safe, even if you have no data around, you know, whether the place is safe, safe or not, if you're not feeling safe, then really spend that extra time checking in and making sure that you're accountable to yourself and your safety and your well-being. That's number one priority before anything else. That's that's that inner authority is really important.

Jonathan Fields (00:29:41) - Love that. Well, if you've been tuning in and this topic is in any way resonant to you, and if it's not now, I'm sure at some point it was and unfortunately it may be in the future. I hope that these ideas, these tools, these strategies are super helpful. And if you know anybody else who is going through this, please go ahead and share this conversation. The more people that can really discover these tools and strategies, I just think it makes for a better individual and collective experience. To all of our listeners, thanks for tuning in, Yvonne. Always thanks for your heart centered wisdom and we will see you all again here next week.

Jonathan Fields (00:30:17) - Take care, everyone.

Yvonne Ator (00:30:17) - Bye, everyone.

Jonathan Fields (00:30:20) - Hey, so I hope you enjoyed that conversation. Learned a little something about your own quest to come alive and work in life and maybe feel a little bit less alone along this journey to find and do what sparks you. And if you'd love to share your own moment and question with us, we would love to hear from you. Just go ahead and click on the submissions link in the show notes to get the details on how to do that. And remember, if you're at a moment of exploration looking to find and do or even create work that makes you come more fully live, that brings more meaning and purpose and joy into your life, take the time to discover your own personal Sparketype for free at Sparketype.com. It'll open your eyes to a deeper understanding of yourself and open the door to possibility like never before. And hey, if you're finding value in these conversations, please just take an extra second right now to follow and rate SPARKED in your favorite podcast app.

Jonathan Fields (00:31:16) - This is so helpful in helping others find the show and growing our community so that we can all come alive and work in life together. Until next time. I'm Jonathan Fields. And this is SPARKED.