How to Take Control of Your Career

Jonathan Fields: [00:00:09] So when was the last time you asked yourself if your career truly is headed where you want it to go? Or maybe just feel like you're coasting along or following someone else's script? I understand the temptation to stay the course when it seems familiar or safe. We've all felt that, but playing it safe is not necessarily the right way to build a career that allows you to grow into your best self. In today's SPARKED Hot Take, we are in conversation with Grace Puma, former Executive Vice president and COO of PepsiCo, board member of Organon and Co and Target Corporation, and co-author of the empowering new book Career Forward. So with over 30 years revolutionizing major corporations, Grace has seen firsthand how outdated societal expectations can steer women onto career paths that leave them stuck in neutral. In our conversation, Grace helps you grab the wheel and chart a course aligned with your true aspirations. We'll explore how to move past the myth of work life balance, and integrate your personal and professional lives in an intentional way, and Grace shares how to define your unique cardinal direction, how to take control of your career GPS, and build professional equity as you move ahead. She also reveals how to course correct when you veer off track, so you can leave a legacy you're proud of.

Jonathan Fields: [00:01:27] If you've ever felt stuck on a career path that wasn't truly meant for you, this episode will inspire you to regain control and reorient yourself toward a more purposeful destination. Let's dive in. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is SPARKED. But excited to dive in. We're having this conversation at a time where I think a lot of people are doing a lot of reimagining when it comes to the work that they're doing when it comes to not just their immediate job, but the trajectory, their career, when they're sort of thinking about, where do I want to head and how do I want to get there? And I think one of the big things that people are revisiting is what is sort of the what is the traditional advice that I've been given, and how good is that really for me? And does it apply to me? You know, and I think the work that you're doing and, you know, the ideas in the book Career Forward, really focusing on re-examining those questions, especially in the context of women navigating careers. What do you see as some of the sort of pillars of traditional career advice, where you're looking at that and just kind of shaking your head and saying this, this just isn't right, especially for this day and age.

Grace Puma: [00:02:46] Yeah, it's a really good question. Um, I'll start with one, because a lot of what we're hearing today in the workforce is really trying to get satisfaction in their personal lives and satisfaction in their professional lives. And one of the things that we talk about in the book is this concept of 360 degree life. And when you talk about what hasn't been working, I don't think anybody can say the whole idea of work life balance has been working. I don't think anybody has achieved it. And we think that's because it's based in a premise of trade offs versus a concept of an integrated life and thinking about success as success in your personal life, as well as your professional life as one. So that sounds good on paper, but I think we debunk the fact that it's picking and choosing. We think you need to be intentional and thoughtful, almost like an intentionality wheel where at any given time, what's important and prioritize becomes clear. And you focus on that, and you work for solutions that can provide the room in your life for both, you know, doing your job well and excelling, as well as taking care of the things you need to personally. Yeah.

Jonathan Fields: [00:03:50] Do you feel like the both internal and maybe familial and maybe societal, maybe workplace culture expectations in that context around sort of like the notion of work life balance or like what your quote is supposed to do or say yes to or no to is different on a gender basis.

Grace Puma: [00:04:07] Yeah, it's an interesting question. I think it used to be more different or highly different a few years ago. I think things are better than they used to be than when we were coming up. But to answer your question, I think men and women are both still have to face that complexity of managing big lives and hopefully growing into big careers, um, based on their aspirations. So I don't think it's different. I think it's especially the way it is today. I think men and women have a much more active role at home, as well as supporting each other professionally.

Jonathan Fields: [00:04:41] Yeah. What's your your take? I'm so curious on how the last 3 or 4 years have also shifted. I mean, I think we've seen changes that have been afoot probably for the last 10 to 15 years. More broadly, they're definitely bigger trends, but there's profound disruption that has happened in the last three years or so around the pandemic. A lot of people were working remotely and they reconnected with this sense that, wait a minute, there are parts of my life, yes, maybe it's a hassle, like trying to figure out how to actually work and create a space with kids running around and all the stuff that we all dealt with. But a lot of people also created with the fact that they actually they like where they live, they like their community. They love not actually giving up an hour to three hours a day of commuting. They like actually being able to reclaim their health. And what do you see as the role of the last three years or so in changing the the quote, non-negotiables or demands or expectations of people when they look at what they actually want to get back from their careers? Yeah, it's.

Grace Puma: [00:05:39] A really good question, and it's an interesting time to reflect on that. You know, I think we talk about this concept of cardinal direction, and we don't use the word North star because North Star is fixed. It's up there. It's the North star. Cardinal direction is something that is going to be shaped by your experiences and the changes you have in your life and the things that you know, you feel purpose from, and also how your capabilities grow and what your aspirations grow. So the reason I start with that is I think coming out of the last three years, I think people are redefining what is their cardinal direction and what is it that I want to achieve. We encourage in this book that having and seeking a career that works for you is something that's not only encouraged, but it's worth it. But to do so, I think you have to be clear on your guardrails and you hit the point. Guardrails, um, be clear about what's going to give you energy and what's going to allow you to be able to support the type of work that you're going to be able to contribute and excel on while maintaining yourself in a more holistic way? You know, we don't really resonate with the trends out there of quiet quitting. Um, or some of the others that says, you know, just check out, you know, if you don't like what you're doing. We think that you are given talents. No matter who you are and applying your talents and and being thoughtful and intentional on being clear on what your aspirations are and doing that for yourself, as well as for the companies that you are employed by so that you can contribute, is part of having a full life. So I think that's the transition that's happening now.

Jonathan Fields: [00:07:16] Yeah. I want to deepen into this notion of cardinal direction a little bit more. You sort of shared one of these things. Okay. So let's think about the guardrails, the constraints to a certain extent. What else goes into that bucket. What else are we looking at. Like what are some of the criteria that we might think about when we're trying to sort of like suss out our the cardinal direction?

Grace Puma: [00:07:33] Yeah. So I think you would also look at where are your strengths and where are your capabilities, what type of work do you enjoy doing. And it doesn't have to be a specific, as you know, I want to be this particular type of job or title sometimes I'll give you an example, a real example for myself. You know, I love transformations, so transformations were a lot of my cardinal direction. I wanted to be environments and in companies, and I worked in a number of different companies. I worked for, you know, consumer products, technology and airline at one point, all involving at the center. My cardinal direction of being able to transform and to contribute and to grow my career. And so it's really being clear on what are you good at, how do you fine tune and keep growing, and then how do you then look for opportunities or expand opportunities that are in front of you to be able to achieve that?

Jonathan Fields: [00:08:24] Yeah, I mean, that's really interesting. I love this sort of like the example that you give of, you know, for you there's just the experience of transformation. It's a process, you know, rather than I think a lot of us think about, okay. So we look at domain expertise as the thing we aspire to. I am an expert in this particular thing, and that's where I'm going to devote myself. I gain skills there. My talents lie in there rather than saying, no, actually, there's there's this capacity to really go deep into process, to understand it, to become skilled at it, and that simply being able to apply that process in a competent way across almost any domain can actually give us the feeling you want to get. But I feel like I feel like we miss we oftentimes we kind of like we don't look at it that way. Yeah. I'm curious what your take is.

Grace Puma: [00:09:11] No, I completely agree. And I would also add, you know, bringing in one of the concepts of, you know, think of that reality is that the business environment, your career is pretty long term period of time, but it's very dynamic. And one of the things we talk about in this book is this career GPS. And that's really what you're getting at, because at the end of the day, we say you wouldn't get in your car and just start driving, right? You would figure out, where is it I want to go. Hence your cardinal direction would be out there. And then you would find that you might be driving and suddenly they're rerouting you. Something's happened. There's an accident, there's a slippery road conditions. So if you if you take that analogy and you apply it to your life, you know, you're at the wheel of your car. And so as you're driving, it's not, you know, things will happen, road conditions will change, opportunities will come up. And how you think about those and how you adapt to those is critical. Um, and we talk a lot about, you know, what to do about that, you know, how do you build professional equity, for example, you know, and how do you build that in a way that allows you to enjoy the freedoms of being marketable and credible as you seek your aspirations?

Jonathan Fields: [00:10:20] Matt. So take me a bit deeper into the notion of the career GPS. I think when you hear what you're describing, people, you kind of nod along and say, well, that makes perfect sense. But but then when you think about it in the context of your career, what actually is the career GPS? Is this something we build? Um, like take me a little bit deeper into what this actually is. Yeah, maybe it shows up, maybe.

Grace Puma: [00:10:43] Giving you some real life examples on it. Yeah. Okay. Um, so you're driving along and there might be things in your life that change, um, again, keeping your aspirations but having guardrails. So I'll give you an example. When my daughter was in high school, you know, moving her was not was an option. You know, she was at a very critical time in her life. And and I knew that. And it was important to me. On the other hand, I had the aspirations to become a chief procurement officer at the time, and I was getting solicited for opportunities as I drove along my career road for jobs. But they all required relocation. And so I didn't just sit still. I made a choice, knowing that I'm on a path and that I have priorities, and I have yet aspirations to continue to grow along that journey by making different decisions. One of the things I did in the current company I was in is I looked for expanded roles. I knew I had expertise in X, and I asked to go expand my role to Y and Z, and I gained capabilities. And then the other thing I did is I started to shift my focus on that road and heavily networked in the area I was living, and was able to secure a chief procurement officer job locally, which was a tremendous opportunity. So it's about not sitting still. It's about. Reading the conditions in your life, both personally and professionally, keeping your aspirations and your strategic intent in front of you, and then shifting and adjusting so that you can continue along that journey.

Jonathan Fields: [00:12:09] Yeah, that that line, though, it's about not standing still. That's right. I think that lands so powerfully because so many of us were kind of like, we're waiting for the sign that so we can take the first step in the right direction. And it sounds like what you're saying is no, actually, like just take a step and like, once you're in motion, you can you can figure out what the trajectory is, but you've got to be in motion. Yeah.

Grace Puma: [00:12:33] I would also say that, you know, we talk in the book a little bit about, you know, stagnation. And when we talk about, you know, I really do think it's a key point because when you stay still, you could potentially stay still because you've got a good job, you've got a great title, your boss loves you, you've got great performance reviews, but you are potentially losing time in your career journey. Why? Because you're not growing. And if you're not growing, you need to think about how you don't stand still and how you create the environments to grow and to continue to build your capability. And as I said, professional equity.

Jonathan Fields: [00:13:08] So let's talk a little bit more about professional equity. This is sort of like a one of the major focuses in the book for you. And you kind of use the phrase think of yourself as growth stock when you're like trying to build this equity. So deconstruct this a little bit. Like what does it actually look like in real life.

Grace Puma: [00:13:28] Yeah, it's one of my favorite analogies. I used it throughout my career. So when you think about a growth stock, just taking a step back, you know, whatever company you want. Let's take Apple for example. They typically have characteristics. They have characteristics to grow, to return returns to their shareholders at a much faster pace or a higher level than their peer companies. But they also have characteristics of investing in the next capability, being forward thinking, cultivating that. And so when you take that analogy and you say, gee, what if I thought of myself as a growth stock, you could apply the same principles. So what does that mean? Well, for me it was thinking around, gee, how do I continue to build my capabilities, not just in what I'm doing today, but we encourage people to think about what are those next set of capabilities that are going to be necessary, marketable, and quite frankly, differentiating for you. And as you invest in that and you keep learning and you keep growing in those areas, you gain professional equity. And professional equity isn't just about being considered for opportunities. It's also about, you know, being valued in a way that allows you to be confident that you're not going to worry about losing your job or beholden to one company, because you're going to know that your credibility and your marketability will land you on your feet to your next opportunity. And that actually is good for your company, because it allows you to be bolder and more confident as as you expand your contributions wherever you're sitting today.

Jonathan Fields: [00:14:54] Right. Do you feel that there's a phenomenon where because I almost wonder if some people, um, they start to say like, well, I really want to grow. I want to invest in myself as a growth stock. I want to build my professional equity. So I'm going to do every training. I'm going to say yes to every opportunity. I'm going to take courses. I'm going to expand beyond like the like the defined job that I was hired to do, because I get to actually learn different things, and you start to accumulate all this new competence and higher levels of skill, and you become known for that. Also, I think there are folks who have had the experience of doing that within an organization and then having others around them be threatened by that. Mhm.

Grace Puma: [00:15:34] Yeah, that can happen. And you know, I think the key is, you know, you really have to be clear about why you're doing it and what you're doing. But if it's around your growth and your expansion, you can't let other people's energies or jealousies distract you. And sometimes I'll even throw a different concept. Sometimes you find people that we use the term shiny penny, people who like continue. You know, you walk in the room and they're like, you know, everybody's like, oh, they're fantastic. But you don't see them delivering anything. You don't see them growing, but they've got the it factor and they may even be promoted. And you can't allow that to distract or try to role model you role model a point of how do I continue to be the best I can be? How can I continue to grow? How can I, you know, continue to focus on the capabilities that make me different and differentiated and that usually, you know, that usually pulls you through.

Jonathan Fields: [00:16:28] Now that makes sense. Yeah. It also ties in with one of the things that you write about. It's almost like in a, in an opposing way, which is this notion of the underdog and how that can sometimes kind of be flipped on its head and become a bit of a superpower.

Grace Puma: [00:16:42] Yeah. Look, I think everybody, men and women have experienced at one point in a time in your career where you feel like the underdog and the underdog, you know that you're coming from behind. But what's interesting and what we talk about in our book is, you know, this is a. Book about empowerment and action. And an underdog can give you superpowers. And what does that mean? How can it feel like superpowers? Well, first of all, you know, I don't know if you see a sports team that's behind by two points. All of a sudden everybody's rooting for them, right? So you can actually find that if you're in an underdog position and you continue to focus on, you know, step change, delivery and accomplishment that people really get there, they root for you. They want you to succeed. They say, wow, look what she did, or look what he did. And you can actually get support that can be leveraged by being the underdog and coming from behind. The other thing is it builds confidence, personal confidence, because any time you do something and you come from behind, you're showing yourself that you can, that you can, you can either jump adversity or you can open up new doors. And then you realize that you're more and more confident, and it builds a muscle being an underdog. And so, you know, we're not we're not putting lipstick on this. Being an underdog can be can be challenging. Okay. But we're suggesting that if you channel that and you use it to continue to to leverage your skills and your capabilities, you might find yourself surprising yourself that it becomes an advantage.

Jonathan Fields: [00:18:08] Hmm. I wonder if the notion of also not just surprising yourself, but surprising others. It makes people take notice differently than if you just sort of showed up and there was a high expectation. But this also brings up something that really bothers me about a lot of the corporate world. And kind of curious where you land on this. There's been this tendency to label people and like one of the phrases that, you know, has really emerged and been kicked around is this phrase high potential? That bugs me so much because you're essentially saying everybody who quote doesn't get this, you're mid to low potential, and it basically tells them they don't have the capacity to perform. And it says there's not something extraordinary in you that you can grow into or expand upon. What's your. But that language is so prevalent in sort of organizational culture these days. What's your take on that language?

Grace Puma: [00:18:58] Yeah, I don't disagree. I agree with you. Um, you know, first of all, when you label, anyway, you're you're usually being labeled in a current set of environment by current set of people. Right? So there's a lot of dynamics in that. Right? Right. There's capability, there's politics. There's a lot of things.

Jonathan Fields: [00:19:14] Just personal things.

Grace Puma: [00:19:15] Yeah, exactly. And that's the reality. I'm not saying dismiss it. I think being, you know, getting feedback and caring about your career and your equity and organization and talking about, you know, how do how am I viewed is very important. It's one data point that you need to always be aware of, but, you know, getting overly invested in that label. And by the way, you can be overly invested because you actually are pumped up on it. You know, I've been told I'm a high potential. That's great. Um, but, you know, again, back to career GPS. Are you on target for where you want to go in your aspirations? Are you growing? Um, you know, there's high potentials that are sitting in very big jobs and very, very important jobs, but I'm not sure they're growing. And so again, I always say, don't believe your own press releases. You know, it's good. It's important. It's a data point.

Jonathan Fields: [00:20:07] Now that makes a lot of sense. You referenced earlier this notion of understanding what makes you different. And I feel like sometimes people look at the word different in, uh, sort of a career context as a double edged sword. On the one hand, they want to quote fit into they want to belong to whatever the culture is on the team, the division, the organization. But, you know, on the other hand, we all have something that is different about us. And oftentimes the thing that we try and hide is the thing that would actually be our greatest asset. Um, and this is such a common struggle, I'm wondering how you see this show up.

Grace Puma: [00:20:40] You know, it's interesting. It is a common struggle. I think authenticity is really important. I think you're going to be your best version of yourself if you can be authentic to who you are. So trying to fit in too much to where you maybe take away your strengths by trying to blend in, you know, like, but being a zebra in a pack of horses, you know, can also have its challenges. So what am I saying? I'm saying you have to read the culture. Okay? Think of the culture that there's probably bumpers or boundaries around that. So you should definitely play within the culture because those cultural norms are important. But you should try to be authentic to yourself and be comfortable with who you are and stand out in the ways that you actually are special. And um, so I would say embrace it. I think people who have been successful are rarely the vanilla ones. You know, they're usually people that good, bad or indifferent have some of the it factor that they bring to the table. Um, so again, I would say leverage it but leverage it within with some, you know, emotional intelligence on what the cultural norms are.

Jonathan Fields: [00:21:45] Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, it's been my experience often that also one of the big differentiators for a lot of people that don't really realize is their point of view. And that is something that I think especially. Early in your career, we tend to be a little bit terrified of bringing to, you know, if you're showing up on a new team or like maybe you're in a company for three years and you're standing up a new team and you're you're kind of like the new the unknown entity in a team. Everyone else kind of knows him, and they seem to be senior, you know, like from you and everyone's brainstorming, they're sharing ideas and you've got a really strong point of view, but you don't share it. It could be such a powerful differentiator. Yet I feel like so many of us really, we doubt the value of our point of view.

Grace Puma: [00:22:27] Yeah, I think it's it gets back to being authentic and to have confidence in yourself. I think expressing your point of view is almost your your core obligation in being there. You're on that team for a reason. You're in the room for a reason. Now, that being said, you know, you know, maturity would tell you it's good to listen. You know, I used to think about it a buy a bouncing ball. You have ten people in the room and the ball's bouncing in the conversation of different people. It's good to listen a little bit because you can get contacts, and then you're actually able to express your opinion with that context in mind. It may not change your opinion, but it may allow you to have insights on how to say it or approach it in a way that people can hear it and can digest it. So I guess you could say, you know, I would definitely say if you're sitting in the room and you're sitting quiet or you're in a situation where somebody is talking over you, there's lots of skills to be able to say, hey, you know, what can I hold for a second? I have a thought here, and you can do it in a way that people can't argue with a thought or a perspective. So that would be what I'd say about it. But not voicing your opinion is it's going to be very detrimental. You won't be, you won't be satisfied with yourself, and you won't actually be able to excel in your performance if you can't, if you can't do that.

Jonathan Fields: [00:23:40] Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And also, I think part of it is just getting comfortable with the notion that you're also not going to be right and you're not always going to be like agreed with. And that's okay. Yeah. You know, because there will be times where like, it really is going to matter that you share that point of view. In one of the things that you talk about, you dive into in the book, as well as this notion of like, it's going to happen to everybody at some point, we're going to stumble. There's going to be a setback. Maybe it's internally generated from us, maybe it's a culture thing, maybe it's. But there's going to be a time. Um, so you offer this framework to kind of help navigate that. So um, which is short handed with the, the acronym Skid. Um, walk me through this a little bit.

Grace Puma: [00:24:21] Yeah. Um, the chapter is called steer Into the Skid. And it's a really important concept because, you know, it's not all puppies and roses, okay? No matter what career path you go through. But it's also meant from a high potential perspective, as we said, you know, things are going to happen. It might be you have a new boss, it might be that you have a merger, your company is doing layoffs and you're restructured. It could be a lot of things. The strategy of the company shifts. It doesn't have to be necessarily performance based. It can be that you're performing well and suddenly the world changes. But at the end of the day, the same principle. If you find yourself in a skid and the reason we say steer into the skid is the analogy of your driving on an icy road, and your reaction is to turn the wheel in the opposite direction instead of leaning into the skid. So what we're offering with the technique of soar is to really stop when you're in those moments and to and it's soar. So, ah, so, you know, assess your strengths, be clear about candidly, what are you good at, where do you contribute? What are your strengths when you're in this changing environment and then look for opportunities? You know, often when you're in a situation where things are changing and feeling slippery and uncertain, almost always you can find an opportunity.

Grace Puma: [00:25:31] It might say, hey, my company is now, you know, moving to this type of capability. You know what? I might be able to be really good at that when I leverage my strengths. So look for opportunities, opportunities that align with what's changing and what's becoming important, and then really think through the fact of what can you do from an action perspective. You know, we we send a message here that you're in charge of your career, okay. It's really easy to feel, you know, it's my boss, it's my company and that. But if you're in a slippery situation, think through very clearly. What is it that I can do? What actions can I take? Because it's not only empowering, it's actually gives you strength and focus during a time that can feel very uncertain. And then last is like, go ahead and make the step to take those those actions and move forward. Because I think it's it's super important. But you know what? At the end of the day, you know, we're expect to be in situations that are going to be uncomfortable and just get really clear on where you are and what you can do about it.

Jonathan Fields: [00:26:33] Yeah, I think that first part is also so important. Like expect that you are going to find yourself in those situations, whether they're of your making or somebody else's or like general culture or just circumstantial shifts. And we're certainly seeing that these days. You know, there are companies that had massive hiring sprees over the last four years, and now demand has shifted in the marketplace, you know, in a lot of different ways. And it's interesting to see how some people and some firms are responding. Some are like, like having dramatic reductions, and others are kind of saying, how can we figure out how to support people in reorienting to higher demand areas now rather than losing amazing people? And I like what you're saying is like, this isn't just the responsibility of the organization. Like this is partly on us to like, how can we reorient as well? Like how can we steer into the skid?

Grace Puma: [00:27:23] Yeah, that's right.

Jonathan Fields: [00:27:24] Towards the end of the book, you also bring up the notion of career legacy, which I always think is interesting because I think people define it very differently and some people care deeply about it. Some people I've talked to have absolutely no concept of it and just could care less about it. Talk to me about why you felt it was important to to speak to this.

Grace Puma: [00:27:41] Yeah. I mean, if you think about the purpose as to why we even wrote the book, we wrote the book because Gianna and I, because we're at a point where we really wanted to give back. We also have it so hard to find the right words for this adult children that are in the middle of their careers, you know, and they're in their 30s mostly, and they're at critical points. And we wanted to think through what did we learn? And we found that what we learned and what we experienced really is transferable. And so the legacy is being able to be proud and grateful for the career we had. But more importantly, how do we share it back to others? And I think what's also important in legacies is that you know what you leave behind. We're not saying to go be us, you know, go go to. That's not it. Be your journey, get your aspirations. And so I think legacy is very important. It just really makes the experience that you had worth it.

Jonathan Fields: [00:28:34] Yeah. And I mean in, in a meaningful way, I would imagine that also ties back to what we were talking about earlier in the conversation around really thinking about the cardinal direction and that career GPS, because, you know, over a long window of time over, you know, like the entirety of your career, those are the things that are going to result in what that legacy ends up being. So, like being thoughtful about it early on, probably. Helps the ultimate legacy become what you want it to become. Does it make sense to you? Yeah, it's well said. Yeah. Thank you so much for this conversation. Really enjoyed it. And look forward to diving deeper into the concepts and sharing them with our audience.

Grace Puma: [00:29:11] Thank you so much. Appreciate it.

Jonathan Fields: [00:29:13] Pleasure. And to our fabulous listening community. Thanks so much everyone for tuning in. We'll see you here again next week. Take care. Hey, so I hope you enjoyed that conversation. Learned a little something about your own quest to come alive and work in life, and maybe feel a little bit less alone along this journey to find and do what sparks you. And remember, if you're at a moment of exploration, looking to find and do or even create work that makes you come more fully alive, that brings more meaning and purpose and joy into your life, take the time to discover your own personal Sparketype for free at sparketype.com. It'll open your eyes to a deeper understanding of yourself and open the door to possibility like never before. And hey, if you're finding value in these conversations, please just take an extra second right now to follow and rate SPARKED in your favorite podcast app. This is so helpful in helping others find the show and growing our community so that we can all come alive and work in life together. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields and this is SPARKED. This episode of SPARKED was produced by executive producers Lindsey Fox and Me, Jonathan Fields. Production and editing by Sarah Harney. Special thanks to Shelley Adelle for her research on this episode.