How to Tap the Power of Generosity to Grow Your Business | Mo Bunnell

Linked In: [00:00:00] Linkedin presents.

Jonathan Fields: [00:00:18] So have you ever felt like you're just constantly chasing new business clients, but somehow never quite making the genuine connections that really move the needle? Kind of like you're always having to work so hard to sell your products and ideas and facing resistance at every turn, especially within you. And you wish there were a different and easier, a better way. Well, get ready, because today's guest is about to flip the script on how we approach networking and business development. His message is simple yet profound. Stop trying so hard to get and start focusing on how you can give. My guest is Mo Bunzel, author of the book Give to Grow How Givers Get Ahead, and with a background as an actuary who's now one of the business world's most sought after bizdev trainers. Mo has made the radical transition to teaching a fundamentally different mindset for driving growth, one rooted in generosity and empathy and truly understanding others needs before your own. During our candid conversation, Mo really pulls back the curtain on why the conventional what's in it for me approach to sales and networking not only feels inauthentic and often pretty icky, but it's ultimately ineffective, and you'll hear practical strategies for building real relationships by first falling in love with someone's problem, not just pushing your solution.

Jonathan Fields: [00:01:39] So if you ever felt that nagging sense that there just has to be a better way to grow your business while staying true to your values, this conversation will be an awakening for you. Excited to share it! I'm Jonathan Fields and this is SPARKED. Hey, and before we dive into today's episode, a quick share. So if you're a coach, a consultant or a leader, and you would just love to stand out more in 2024 and beyond, with a powerful new credential and a set of results driven superpowers, we have got something for you. With nearly a million people now discovering their profiles, the Sparketypes have become a global phenomenon. People want their work to light them up, and oftentimes they would love some help along the way, which is why we developed our certified Sparketype advisor training. As a certified advisor, you will discover cutting edge tools that spark profound work life. Client transformations stand out with a highly unique credential and skill set in a crowded market. Find ease and flexibility with templated engagement flows, you'll become a part of a global network of change makers, and you'll rack up 40 ICF continuing education credits.

Jonathan Fields: [00:02:51] Our fall cohort is enrolling now with visionaries just like you, and we would love to invite you to uplevel your capabilities as a coach or consultant or leader by becoming a certified Sparketype advisor. To learn more about the fall training and see if it's right for you, just click the link in the show notes now or visit sparketype.com. Slash pros. Interesting having this conversation as somebody who has had the fortune, the challenge, the pleasure of in a very, very past life working for really big companies. But for the vast majority of my adult life, working for myself, starting a number of companies myself, getting to a point where I feel really comfortable kind of doing the work. You know, the service provider, the maker, the the artisan, the, you know, whatever it may be. And then at some point, you know, hitting that moment where, you know, I'm like, oh, I have to generate business to. And realizing that is a very different skill set. And I've sometimes wondered, is that actually a different person? So it's interesting to sort of hear your lens on this. So take me into that, that, that sort of like question.

Mo Bunnell: [00:04:02] Yeah, exactly. Well, what we learned and we've trained over 50,000 high end professionals, mostly externally facing. So people have to build a book of business, but also a lot of internally facing folks, people who don't want to just be an order taker for what they do at work. They want to shape the agenda. They want to be somebody who drives positive change. What we've learned from that is that the skills of doing the work, delivering on the yes, you've already got aren't just different than getting the next yes or getting hired, whatever it is, they're those skills are completely opposite. And I think what's interesting about that, we can break it down more if you want, down to the specific granular skills. But the idea that's really important, that's our headline for today is that old saw of it's not what you know, but who you know is just completely wrong. It's what you know and who you know. And how deep is your relationship with them that you can be moving them to a next level of performance. And both are really important. Jonathan your thoughts?

Jonathan Fields: [00:05:02] Yeah, I mean that that lands with me. And there is that old saw like it's all about who you know and and yet I know many people that are, you know, quote hyper connected and it doesn't seem to be doing much. You know, they know everybody in a room when they walk into it and everyone knows who they are. But there's a lack of context and a lack of, okay, so how does that and I hate to wear the the hat of, you know, a million years ago when I was in a sales training for an organization, you know, they said, imagine everybody has a button on their head, you know, with with that acronym, like what? What can you do for me? Yeah. And that everyone's walking around and like, that is the only way that they evaluate everybody else. Like, you need to show what you can do for me. Is that really is that still true or is that not true? Because it just it feels like a horribly selfish way to look at everyone around you. But then again, is there always some aspect of that that you need to speak to or else you're effectively functionally invisible? Yeah.

Mo Bunnell: [00:06:01] Well, this is interesting because we can actually we don't have to guess. We can we can see what the research says about this. There's a bunch of research around networking specifically that says people generally that go to networking, networking events hate it and they hate it to the extent that there's a high likelihood they want to take a shower at the end of it afterwards because it feels so icky. And that gets to your point of it feels transactional to always like be thinking, what's in it for me? Do I need to go talk to that person? I can see over this person's shoulder because I'm not getting anything here, but this is super cool. What they did find people that loved networking events. A they really looked forward to them and they got the most out of it, were people that had nothing to gain or that were focused on being helpful. So what we find is that when people enter into conversation now, let's widen the aperture from just networking and just talk about life. And this is obviously all in our our book Gift to Grow, which the whole point is giving. Um, if we widen the aperture and we think about everything in life and people that we meet, if we can enter into conversations, that's not what can I get out of this person? But we flip it and say, what can I give this person? How can I be helpful? Now that unlocks a whole body of activities that are really enjoyable, falling in love with their problem, figuring out what makes them tick, figuring out what their next their top priorities are so that we can follow up, and then making offers of helpfulness that are a going to deepen the relationship. But back to our idea of what's what you know and who you know. It's going to let us demonstrate our expertise in a way that's valuable. And it takes it not just from knowing the person, but being able to help them with the skills that we've built over the years. That's a magic, just a magic combination. Yeah.

Jonathan Fields: [00:07:44] And that lands with me. What comes up when you offer that is, you know, I'm picturing me in earlier stage of my career when I walk into a room, and somehow I found myself in a room surrounded by people who are much more accomplished, much more established, much more successful. You know, like and and I'm looking around the room and I'm saying to myself, I'm thinking the thought bubble in my head is okay. So I would love to be able to walk up to them and say, like, how can I help you? What can I give to you? Or at least in my mind, ask the questions which might elicit enough information where I can then come up with something. Yeah, but there's this instant self-defeating thought that says I got nothing. Like these people, they're more senior than me. They're more established. They're smarter than me. They're more skilled than me. They have more experience than me. Like, what do I have to give in a context like that? And I've had conversations with other folks in similar contexts so that I know this just isn't like this isn't unique to me. Walk me through sort of like this experience.

Mo Bunnell: [00:08:38] Yeah. And we can tell some stories here. So when we when we wrote the book Gift to Grow, one of the interesting things that came out of it was my publisher. As we were about halfway through the manuscript, we spent about a we spent 1000 hours to bring this book to market. Thousand on my side and on his side. So Thousands. And somewhere about halfway through the manuscript he said, hey Mo, you've trained all these people around the world, 50,000 people. You've told me what works, what gets in the way. Like when do people, not when they not able to really grow the book of business, deepen the relationships, get the yeses that you want. You basically drive positive change at a high level. And I and Jonathan, I actually didn't know the answer. So we went in our workshops, we got about 20 facilitators, a little less than that. And we over and over and over in our workshops, we said, think of a time when you wanted to reach out and be helpful to somebody, but but you didn't or hesitated. Okay, everybody's got it. We can all think of somebody like that. And then we would either flip chart or type in zoom if it was on, if it was virtual. The answer to why exactly did you hesitate tell exactly what was going on in your head? And what we found was there were five lies that people had have in their head that get in their own way.

Mo Bunnell: [00:09:49] One of those lies is I don't know what to do, and it gets right to the heart of what? What you're thinking. It's all kinds of things. Like, I don't have any, like, these are exact verbatims. Like, I don't have anything fresh to share since our last conversation. I don't know what they want. I don't want to be a nag. I all kinds of things like that. And what we find is if if we can engage in a conversation with somebody where if we just hear about what their passions are in a perfect world, both professionally and personally, then we're able to follow up in things that are hireable or human hireable, meaning we might have follow ups on based on our expertise, what we do for a living, the kind of things we know. But on the human side, we might just find there a big Manchester United fan. Or they're about to go to Africa on safari with their family, their first vacation in a few years. Whatever it is, we can keep asking great questions until we find some kind of hireable or human follow up. It's always there, but it's on us to ask specific questions to find out what they are, and then follow up after that.

Jonathan Fields: [00:10:53] Yeah, I love that distinction between hireable and human as these two buckets, because I think so often, you know, we step into it only looking at the hireable bucket and we kind of forget, oh, this is actually a person with a heart and emotions and a life that exists outside of the job. And maybe I am, you know, like very junior in what I'm doing. And maybe there isn't a ton in terms of skills, but we're two human beings. Like there is life experience that I'm bringing to this, that if I get to know them as a human being, maybe there is something, maybe there's a friend that I have, or maybe there's an experience that I had, or maybe they're a scuba diver. And I figured out how to do this one thing that, you know, like, how do you clear your ears when you're like, at. So like, I love that notion of saying, oh, so this is a human being standing in front of me to let me not just think about what is the hireable context here, but like, is there? How can I actually help just them be more human in what they're doing? And it's something that probably doesn't occur to us sort of out of the gate.

Mo Bunnell: [00:11:50] Yeah, exactly. And I'll, I'll give everybody just a go to move you can use universally. So I have a 22 and 25 year old daughter. They can get him intimidated in this way that you talked about earlier in your career. Like, oh my gosh, I'm talking to a CEO that's 35 years older than me. What can I add to them? Happens all the time. The universal move that anybody can use at any time is to ask for advice. There's a litany of research that shows when we ask for help, and in a subset of asking for help, is asking for advice. Generally speaking, when we ask for help, it is endearing to the other person. It's highly correlated to likability, and we think, like we can think when we're younger, that we're wasting that person's time, but we're actually giving them a high because they're able to impart the wisdom that they work so hard to get. And so whenever we're. I think the I think the, the master key, if we're ever wondering about what to do, is once we find what a person's expertise is, or even if that's the professional or the hireable side, Aside, or we just find out what their passions are and the personal or the human side.

Mo Bunnell: [00:12:56] If we can just ask their advice like, oh wow, it sounds like that you vacationed on a bicycling tour in the heart of France. You went to wineries. Gosh, you know, I don't quite. I'm thinking of a of a vacation in Europe next year. Of course, we're going to be a bit on a shoestring budget because I just, you know, I just got out of school. But what would be your advice to me on the places I should make sure that I hit with my friends? Because we're serious. We're going to do this. Tell me more. Well, as we ask for advice, we're developing those likability, and it takes the onus off us to follow up and actually helps them follow up right there in the moment and, and really have a wonderful experience. That's a bit of it's counterintuitive, but asking for advice is actually a gift that we're giving someone else.

Jonathan Fields: [00:13:41] Yeah, that makes so much sense. I mean, it ties into the research, which I guess is what's commonly become known as the givers glow. This neurochemical reaction when we give, where it releases like certain chemistry that makes you feel good even though you're the one who's actually being generous. You know, there's a benefit to being on the generosity, the giving side of this, which is part of what, you know, like a lot of your work recently, is all about. But we often discount that, like when we're actually asking somebody else for their take that, that is that is a gift to them also because they get that, you know, that change in brain physiology, um, which also often involves some level of potentially oxytocin, which is, you know, one of these hormones that connects us to other human beings that makes us want to feel more connected. Um, so both of you benefit from that experience. You know, one of the other lies that you bring up, which I thought was really interesting, is this notion that I think trips up so many, which is, okay, so I'm in this situation, I'm having the conversation. What if I make a misstep? What if I do something wrong or I say something wrong or offer something wrong? You know, like, couldn't I potentially do more damage by doing this? So so speak to me about this because I know that's one of the other lies that you speak to here.

Mo Bunnell: [00:14:51] Yeah, so I'm afraid. I'm afraid I'll do something wrong. Like, in that case, we sort of know the move to make. Let's say it's, um. We met somebody at a conference, or we met somebody at the big meeting at work internally. And there are two levels above us in a different unit or different business unit, but we really want to meet them. It can be easy to hesitate when we we feel like we know what to do in this scenario, but we hesitate because we perfectionism creeps in. And we know from a meta study by Roy Baumeister that finds bad is stronger than good. He literally named the meta study bad is stronger than good in. Almost all domains in life were impacted more deeply by bad events, and we remember them longer. So in that moment of perfectionism where we want to reach out, we're likely to think of all the bad times that we reached out in. A bad thing happened, and we're going to hesitate. So the move here is to just eliminate perfectionism. And we have a little phrase that people have loved in the book, Give to Grow, that says think ten x naught one x so one x. Thinking is I have to make this next outreach work. They have to reply to them. I need like literally in our minds. I need them to say yes to this.

Mo Bunnell: [00:16:02] Reply to this. That's the wrong way of thinking. That's one x thinking. Think ten x, not one x says I just met this person a week ago. I'm going to add value ten times in their lives over the next several months, next six months, next year, whatever one of them is going to stick. It doesn't have to be this one. I'm going to earn the right over time to get to know them. That lowers the bar down to this one. Doesn't have to be perfect. I'm just going to show I care. The reason we say it's the thought that counts is because in the mind, it's the thought that counts. And even if they never reply, I win. When I hit send, I made the offer to have lunch. I made the offer to introduce them to somebody to be helpful. I made an offer to do an analysis for them, to get some time to learn from them and maybe have them mentor me. And if we just think ten x, not one x lowers the bar way down. Action happens after that. And this this particular lie hates action. When you take action, it'll go find somebody else to bother. It'll quit bothering you. But it takes us moving forward ten x not one x to make that happen.

Jonathan Fields: [00:17:07] Yeah, that makes so much sense to me. You know, I wonder if also when somebody hears, you know, like the ten x thing, there's a potential association that says, well, so you're telling me to reach out to them ten times, but isn't that sort of like the equivalent of hassling them ten times instead of one time, you know? And in a lot of contexts, I think it is because a lot of those, you know, we all get emails in our inbox and then every three days we get an email that says bubbling it up to the top of your inbox, hey, I've got this pitch for you. Yeah. You know, when, when, when the ten x is I want more. Ask ask ask ask ask. It's about me then. Yes, but what you're suggesting is that ten x is. Here's another way to give. Here's another way to offer value. Here's another way to actually say, I see you and I know you and can I can help you that, that that frequency is experienced very different than the frequency of saying ten times. Give me something. Yeah.

Mo Bunnell: [00:17:56] Bingo. And you just just getting super practical to build on what you just said. It's the people who email at one offer. It's usually about them. Hey, I want to meet and talk about my stuff to see if you'll buy my stuff. Here's a video of me talking about my stuff. You know those a are repulsive. And then when somebody follows up three times and says, hey, want to make sure I know you're busy, hope you got this bubbling this to the top of your mind, all just like you said. Like that kind of follow up is not good. It's in one thread, it's on one thing, it's selfish, and then it becomes annoying very quickly. We are not talking about that. We're talking about we met somebody at the big meeting, internal or external, and they mentioned that they're really into figuring out how AI is going to be deployed in the finance function at their company. And they mentioned they're a big Saint Louis Cardinals baseball fan, and that they're going on vacation on an African safari next week. So we like we know those three things. This is amazing. Well, the next we've got we got a year of content there just in three things. So the next week we might say, hey, just wishing you luck.

Mo Bunnell: [00:18:59] I think you mentioned you're headed on vacation tomorrow for two weeks on the safari. Just wanted to let you know I'm thinking about you. Can't wait to see pictures sometime, but just have a great time. Like that. Might be a 50 word email, but it says I see you like I loved your words. Jonathan, I see you. I'm paying attention. I just wish you the best of luck. Well, even if they don't reply, that is going to be received so well that you paid attention. Remembered. Then maybe the month later, you happen to stumble across an amazing article on how large language models are being deployed in analytical functions, and you just shoot that over and say, hey, I saw this thought of you think this is really interesting. Hope to see you in the cafeteria soon. On and on and on. And we just need to space out those, those little that little campaign of helpfulness, if you will, over time and again, thank ten x naught one x. Something's going to land and pretty soon they're going to go, hey, would you mind talking about this or do you have some thoughts over in the HR function about how we might be able to do this or whatever it is?

Jonathan Fields: [00:20:00] Yeah. And part of what you're talking about here also is sort of like with context is playing a long game. Yes. You know, is this notion of like, okay, so everything doesn't have to be a now thing, you know, and that, you know, if I develop the rapport and the trust and the likability and also genuinely, I'm sharing things of value that I can take my time and that when the time is right, you know, like so often when we're in this bizdev context, we have a sense of immediacy because we have numbers to hit or we're getting compensated in a particular way, or we want this next deal. Yep. But all the people who need our services might not need them for 18 months or for three years or for six months. And, you know, so often it's are you the person that has been paying attention and attentive to them a year down the road when that need actually does arise and you're just top of mind because you've been there and and generous and generative to them. And I wonder if you see in the work that you do that there's oftentimes we have to dial back our expectations about timeline and know that, you know, like our mental model of what the appropriate time is, is not the mental model.

Mo Bunnell: [00:21:15] That's exactly right. People. People fall in and out of being qualified. Their budgets get frozen or all of a sudden they unlock at the end of the year and they have twice as much as they thought. Um, priorities change all the time. Like they need your services. They don't need your services. What what I think people don't understand about the value of playing the long game, like you're talking about, is actually how fast the long game pays off for you. And so we think in linear terms, our brains are wired to think linear, you know, like hungry, eat email comes in answer. You know, like like we're just so short term focused Facebook post check likes. You know, we're literally that simple. But when we dollar cost average, if you will, in this investment or this in a relationship like we talked about in that scenario, let's say we play that out a year. Let's say we invested in that person. That was really important to us potential client, internal stakeholder, whatever it is, ten times over a year. That's almost like dollar cost averaging in the stock market.

Mo Bunnell: [00:22:12] We are differentiating ourselves in not linear. Now that relationship is growing exponentially. Some people get that, but very few. What almost nobody gets is that the network effect of exponential growth stacks on top of that. So if I invest in Su and I invest in Janine and I invest in Philippe, pretty, pretty soon Sue, Janine and Philippe talk to each other and say how great we are. I can't believe I got a new idea from Jonathan. Oh, you know Jonathan. Jonathan's great. Jonathan. We go back. So I just met him two years, but he helped me with a little workshop. One time. He took nights and weekends work to help me out. Well, so as we invest in individuals, that grows exponentially. And then they all start talking to each other. So we know the number of nodes added to an X and a network grow the value of the network exponentially. By continually investing in people, the payoff goes up like total vertical very quickly. We not only win in the short term, but we really win in the medium term as well. Does that land?

Jonathan Fields: [00:23:13] Yeah, no, 100%. I hadn't even really thought about like the the compound interest of the network effect. Right. Yeah. You know, it's sort of like eventually when you have enough nodes and you have they're out there and, and very often the people who would be your clients or customers who you can solve on behalf of, they exist in a community where they know each other, you know, and at some point they get to talk, you know, and and yeah, that that is really interesting. And it makes so much sense. And if you become known to all of them as somebody who actually cares who's in it for the long term and is providing value here and there, then like there's almost like this exponential effect and like, you know, somebody's like, oh, this person is known by this person and this person and this person must be mean that they are sort of like worthy of my time and effort and potentially resources and budget. And if and when the time comes, you share another idea in this book that on the one hand, is really intuitive, and on the other hand, I think a lot of us don't actually operationalize, which is this notion of falling in love with their problem and not your solution. And I'm raising a hand here as somebody who's been a lifelong entrepreneur, which and most people who start businesses, they do it because they're kind of in love with the solution that they think they figured out, and they just love making something around it. And they get they fall in love with that rather than saying, you know, like, who do I really want to be in service of? And what are the problems that they're dealing with on a regular basis? And how can I really lead with that? How does how does this shift in mindset weave into the context that we're talking about here?

Mo Bunnell: [00:24:41] Oh, fall in Love with their Problem is such a great headline. And obviously a chapter in the book Gift to Grow. Well, there's some research here. I'll tell you some research in a in a very practical technique people can use. It's so powerful. The research is by somebody named Victor Ottati, which few people have heard of. I just love his stuff. And what he found is a mental heuristic, mental shortcut. It's in all of our brains and it's called earned dogmatism. And what he validated through that is that basically it's complicated sciency stuff, but in a nut it says the more the more expertise we perceive we have in a topic, the more closed minded we become. That's worth sinking in a moment. The more we believe we're good at something, the more close minded we become. It's almost the curiosity that got us there ends up getting closed off. So let's say we were an entrepreneur or we invented a product. We're a lawyer. We're the best IP patent lawyer for life sciences companies in the world. Whatever it is, as we build up the expertise, that expertise, when we meet a new client or a new prospect or there's a new opportunity because we've seen the movie so many times before, we're likely to jump to conclusions. We're likely to just squash them with our expertise. We want to share all this knowledge that we've got, and we can talk about us and not them.

Mo Bunnell: [00:25:56] What we want to do is jiu jitsu. This. We want to flip it on its head. And every single time we're talking to somebody, we want to force ourselves to have sort of that beginner's mind, fall in love with their problem and ask question after question after question to to the extent that here's our litmus test that we can paraphrase back to them, their priorities and their words. If we can ask enough great questions that we can say, hey, Jonathan, it sounds like what you're doing with your business is X, Y, and Z. Did I get that right? Whether they change it, they tweak things. Fantastic. That's showing alignment. If they say you nailed it, fantastic. That's showing alignment at that point in their brain. They're receptive to hearing how you can solve those problems because they know you get it. But not until then. And to your point Jonathan, I'll close with this is what almost everybody does is they flip it. They start with their PowerPoint deck. It's got all the things that they do. And here's all my accolades. Well, we're just like, we're just squashing them. You know we want to flip this. We want to get them talking first. Learn their priorities and their words, falling in love with their problem. And then we can talk about with precision how we can help them.

Jonathan Fields: [00:27:05] That makes so much sense as you're describing that. I had a quick flashback. I spent a window of time in the fitness industry, and there was a there was a classic model where, like, somebody walks into a gym and, you know, you have the three offices on the side with the sales associate come out and the associate would very often like the shtick was, okay, hey, how are you? And the first thing they do is let me tour you around our facility. Right. And then they're showing you here our treadmills. And we have 30 classes. And here's our resistance training. And we're open to these hours, and we have personal training. And it always struck me that that, you know, probably 80% of the time that that was the first move, Rather than somebody saying, hey, let's just sit down and chat for a couple of minutes. Tell me why you're here. You nailed it. Like what actually matters to you? Like what? What problem are you trying to solve by. By looking at this. You know, and because without that information, they have no idea what to even talk about or what to show you or what you care about. And probably 80% of what they're then showing you and offering all the features. It just doesn't matter to you.

Jonathan Fields: [00:28:06] It's this happens so often. Also, you know, we've we've been on the other side of, you know, touring houses and looking for houses. And we show up and an agent just tours the house rather than just saying, hey, like, what are you looking for in a home? Um, and then like, which is effectively the same thing. Like, what problem are you trying to solve by thinking about buying a home and then understanding where to actually provide value. So it makes so much sense that we do this. But when you're representing that big, beautiful solution, oftentimes we think everybody just wants all of this. And then we end up inadvertently not only convincing somebody, but we end up wasting all of our time. Yeah. You know, and wasting one of the most precious assets that any of us have. Because you and I have left those, you know, tours and gyms and tours of homes kind of rolling my eyes saying, like, I will never work with this person again or I'll never join this facility because clearly it's just about this transaction rather than actually, like, helping me, like helping me solve this thing that I'm trying to solve. Yeah, I would imagine with all the work that you do, you see this all the time?

Mo Bunnell: [00:29:05] Yeah, all the time. And and to tie back something you said before, people want to be seen. They want to be heard. And the way if we can start with questions, then, then they can feel seen. So a sort of a pro ninja tip that you might have seen in the chapter fall in love with their problem is, is to is to ask your questions in a way that makes it clear that you want to know something only that person knows. And this is based on some research by Diana Tamir that finds when people offer self disclosing information, it just means SDI is what's used in the literature. But but it just means something only they know. When you ask questions like that, you get a triple win. A she's found in her research that it lights up the pleasure center of the person. So as I share things only I know I'm on, I'm literally on a high because the pleasure center is firing. The second thing is those types of questions highly correlate to likability. Jonathan, I think it's really funny that the more they talk and the less they talk, the more they like us. The less we talk, the more they like us. I think that's funny. And then the third benefit is we're going to learn their priorities and their words. Play those back. Make sure we got it right. And then to your point show them the exact thing that they want. So I think it's not only that we just have to ask questions but ask them in a certain way. Like, hey Jonathan, given your experience of being an entrepreneur, what do you think is the number one thing somebody needs to think about as they transition from side hustle to full time? Like, I actually want to know that. And but but by saying from your perspective, it just brings out a different feeling in you than, you know, than it would just like if it was more of a generic question, if that makes sense.

Jonathan Fields: [00:30:42] No, that makes a lot of sense. And it also speaks to this. You know, in my experience, I'm curious whether you agree with this. There is always there's the problem that people think that they're trying to solve. And maybe it's the business problem, the business case, you know, and then but there is almost always the underlying just individual personal problem, which is a feeling of being invisible, an unseen unheard and not having their point of view validated, you know, and they don't realize that on just a personal level, they're constantly walking through the day trying to solve for that until somebody actually sees them and acknowledges them and receives their input and says, this is really good. And, you know, so I feel like we are always speaking to, you know, the the overt, the surface level problem that somebody is surfacing is this is this is the need that I have. But then the human need underneath that is so often for so many people, they don't feel seen. They don't feel like their their point of view is is ever elicited or appreciated or known. And when we allow somebody to be known, it's so rare that often they don't even realize that that's a problem that they're walking around trying to solve. But when we solve it, and on a subtext level, there's something kind of magical that happens. Does that land with you?

Mo Bunnell: [00:31:58] Oh, you nailed it. As just as you said that, it made me think of that. A line that's in give to grow. That's just we as humans, we hate to be sold to, but we love to buy. And all those superficial questions you're talking about that's like feeling sold to, you know, like like somebody staying at the surface. Like it's better than starting with a huge PowerPoint deck and talking about how great you are. If you're the salesperson or you're the business developer or the expert. So questions are better than that. But superficial questions can still come across as being sold to. But when somebody is really deeply trying to figure out what we really need, whether it involves their help or not, that's like creating a great buying experience or a great buy in experience. So we hate to be sold to we love to buy. Part of a great buying experience is someone seeing us and understand exactly what we need and giving the exact advice we need, whether it helps the advisor or not.

Jonathan Fields: [00:32:51] Yeah.Love that. So as we start to wrap up this conversation, kind of zooming the lens out in this, and by the way, the book is fantastic. So everyone listening dive in. Whether you work in a large organization, whether you work for yourself, you're a private practitioner or a service provider, it's just so helpful to really understand how do we make this shift from being the service provider, being the product developer, or whatever it may be to actually building the relationships and the context in a way where it will help the business grow, it will help sustain us and also help us make an impact and serve other people at the same time. What would you invite people to sort of explore as somebody listening to this conversation, they're like, this all makes sense. Like, like there's there are different ways to do this. What feels like an accessible first step into the concepts that we're talking about here for the typical person.

Mo Bunnell: [00:33:42] That is great. That's such a great question. Here's what I'd say we've really like. You've done a great job of really guiding me, and we're having a great conversation and fall in love with their with their problem. What I would offer is to have people experiment with the next step, which we call. It's another chapter in the book, right after Fall in Love with their problem, which is called give them the experience of working with you so I can tell a quick story and give a practical idea. And I think you're probably ready to to close things out. This is probably the most important thing we've talked about today. The quick story is my wife and I, Becky, we've been married 32 years. We're about two years into marriage. And we went on it at a dinner. We went to a dinner with another couple. And Jonathan, we like, chose a restaurant way more expensive than we all should have given that time in our life. And a sommelier comes up. We weren't used to being in an environment like this. You know, we're really young whippersnappers. And he starts going on and on about this big red Bordeaux, and we're all giving each other the hairy eyeball like, man, there's no way we're buying that. And he leaves. He spent like five minutes talking about how great it was. The vintage, the vineyard, everything. No go.

Mo Bunnell: [00:34:47] To our surprise, he came out. He knew it was sort of a celebratory night. So he came out with a taste of of the wine. Four glasses, small pour gave it to us. We were just blown away. Took a taste, Jonathan. We we bought the bottle. And then a little bit later in the night, we bought a second bottle. We love this wine so much. Well, get the point with that is giving somebody that a taste, giving them an actual opportunity to observe or taste, in this case, wine versus hear about how great it was. We got to taste how great it was. That is a moving experience. So if we want to grow a book of business, or if we want to land that big project internally, one of the most powerful things we do we can do is after we fall in love and learn and paraphrase back the problem to the person we're talking to, and they know we get it. The next step would be to say, hey, gosh, I'm real passionate in that area. Would it be helpful if I blank? That is called what we call a gift to get the book is called Gift to Grow. The gift to get is a really precise little free at no charge. Roll up our sleeves, just get started. Project. It might be the first hour or the first four hours of whatever we want to get started.

Mo Bunnell: [00:36:05] So maybe we might say, hey, would it be helpful if I did a little analysis of how I and LMS might be able to help the finance function, and we could use that to prioritize what you might do next? I'd be happy to do that at no charge, because I just want to get mentored by you and I want to learn. Or if it's external, it. Would it be helpful if I just built a model of how much money this project might save you? Mr. and Mrs. Prospect, on this particular idea we're talking about, whatever the give to get is it's basically just the very beginning of the project. It makes it de-risks. It makes it really easy to say yes to. And you define the endpoint right at the point that you think they would realize they need your help and need to say yes, and now you're getting the big yes you want after that. Effectively what we're doing is we're saying the audience is a fine wine. Give people a taste of the experience of working with you. Just get started on the thing you want the yes for. Make it really easy to say yes, to say. Would it be helpful if I that's the best way to to offer it. And then you're just parked downhill to get the yeses and the acceptances that you want.

Jonathan Fields: [00:37:15] Yeah. Love that. It gives them a taste of the value that you're capable of providing, and simultaneously primes that old cialdini's reciprocity pump at the same time.

Mo Bunnell: [00:37:25] That's exactly what it does.

Mo Bunnell: [00:37:27] Yeah, I think of. Well, it's fast. I think of all cialdini's six major levers. Generosity is the lead every time because it triggers generosity. I think it's the master key to the other ones. Just to put a bow on this, because if you start with giving, it triggers reciprocity, reciprocity, and it buys you time then to become more likable, to show your authority to share what you've done with others. Social proof to to to show scarcity. I'm doing this on my dime and my time because it's so important to me it commitment. It leads to a next step. So by opening the door with generosity, you trigger reciprocity. And it actually lets you have all the other five levers of influence in a positive way if you do it the right way.

Jonathan Fields: [00:38:08] Love that Mo. Just really enjoy the conversation. Everyone go check out the book. Um, give it a go. And um, we'll see you all back here on the next episode of SPARKED. Thanks, everyone. Hey, so I hope you enjoyed that conversation. Learned a little something about your own quest to come alive and work in life, and maybe feel a little bit less alone along this journey to find and do what sparks you. And remember, if you're at a moment of exploration, looking to find and do or even create work that makes you come more fully alive. That brings more meaning and purpose and joy into your life. Take the time to discover your own personal Sparketype for free at sparketype.com. It will open your eyes to a deeper understanding of yourself and open the door to possibility like never before. And hey, if you're finding value in these conversations, please just take an extra second right now to follow and rate SPARKED in your favorite podcast app. This is so helpful in helping others find the show and growing our community so that we can all come alive and work in life together. This episode of SPARKED was produced by executive producers Lindsey Fox and Me, Jonathan Fields. Production and editing by Sarah Harney. Special thanks to Shelley Adelle for her research on this episode. Until next time. I'm Jonathan Fields and this is SPARKED.