How to Tell Good Hard from Bad Hard

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Jonathan Fields (00:00:44) - So we have all been there kind of mired in a project or job or pursuit or passion, maybe a hobby even, and wondering when will this get easier? The doubts start to creep in. You start thinking, Am I cut out for this level of effort? Is this pain just part of the process, or is it a sign that it's actually not right for me? And why does it feel so hard? So when was the last time that you embarked on a project or pursuit only to hit a wall of doubt and difficulties along the way and started to wonder if it was supposed to be this challenging or trying to assess whether the difficulty that you're feeling is because it's right and you just need to find a way through it and grow.

Jonathan Fields (00:01:27) - Or it's wrong for you and it's time to pack it in and move on. That's where we're heading in today's episode of Smart Unpacking the challenges we all face when creating something new from nothing along the way. Adversity, doubt and discomfort. They are sure to become a part of the journey. But how do you know when to just keep pushing through versus to pivot away? Is the hard work indicative that you're on the wrong path or simply part of any generative process? An on deck with me this week from the Spark Brain Trust to help tease out what really matters and share insights and ideas. Is founder of the original Impulse Creative Studio and Atelier and Coaching Program for writers. She's also an author, workshop facilitator, trusted advisor and coach Cynthia Morris as she is in the mix and as Cynthia is actually in the midst of her own creative project, her latest novel. She shares some powerful insights from the trenches of writing on this very dilemma. And together we tease out and offer a set of specific prompts questions and activities to help you tease out strategies for navigating twists in the road that strength and character instead of instead of defeating your spirit and really understand what is the difference between the hard that's telling you it's time to walk away and the hard that's telling you it's time to stay and grow.

Jonathan Fields (00:02:59) - If you're feeling like things are getting harder than you expected and just wondering whether to stay the course or work away, this sparked heartache is for you. Excited to share this conversation? I'm Jonathan Fields and this is SPARKED. Hey, before we dive into today's show, you know, we've learned that a lot of our listeners are sort of at this moment where they're really exploring the notion of work in their lives and their next moves in their careers. And if you are in that place, we talk about the spark and the spark types a lot on this show, this body of work that we've developed to help you really identify what makes you come alive and how to apply that to the world of work. We've heard from a lot of folks that they would also love some help along that journey. If you're curious, you can also find on our website a directory of Certified Sparketype Advisors who know this body of work and can really help coach and guide you through it. So we'll drop a link to the show notes in that right now.

Jonathan Fields (00:03:58) - And if it feels interesting to you and you just like somebody to help guide you through this next part of your career or work journey, take a look and see if somebody resonates. It might be the perfect fit to help you along this next leg of your journey. Again, that link is in the show notes now (https://sparketype.com/csa-directory/).

Jonathan Fields (00:05:01) - Cynthia Morris, esteemed brain trust member. So good to be back in conversation with you. We have a SPARKED hot topic today that we're going to dive into.

Jonathan Fields (00:05:11) - There is some really interesting mythology around the creative process, and that can be whether you are whether you call yourself an artist, whether you're in a job where there are creative parts of it, or whether you're just pushing through or moving through or inviting yourself into any sort of project where you've got to do something from nothing or take that something and build it into something much more substantial. And along the way, there tends to be this mythology that says if it's actually kind of like the thing that you said yes to, the thing that you identify as and the thing that you kind of publicly say you love doing, that you just feel juicy and flowy and there are no no's at any point along the way. And that's not really the truth. That's not how it works in real life. So we're going to dive into like, what's going on in those moments and why we keep sort of moving through. I keep avoiding saying, trying to avoid saying, pushing through, because there's something that doesn't seem right to me about that word.

Jonathan Fields (00:06:12) - And because we've all been in I've been in it, you've been in it very recently and a lot of people listening guaranteed have been in it and wondering like, how do we navigate this and what's really going on when we hit those those moments. So talk to me about this a bit.

Cynthia Morris (00:06:27) - So I am working on my 10th book and I've coached a lot of people to write their books and work on their creative projects. So I know this very well and I'm.

Jonathan Fields (00:06:40) - Fascinated by it and.

Cynthia Morris (00:06:41) - I can't say I've come to any ironclad conclusions. What I what I have found is there's a person who's doing the work, who's writing the book. We'll just talk about writing a book, the person who's writing the book. And then there's the kind of grumpy old man in the balcony, commentating and witnessing and having opinions about the project. And to me, that's the part that we need to really pay attention to and learn to manage. For example, I'm writing a novel. This is my second novel, and I've become kind of obsessed with how much work it is.

Cynthia Morris (00:07:15) - It's a ton of labor and I'm always like, Oh, it's foolish leaving so much work. And then I catch myself and I'm like, Well, okay, is that really where you want to focus? So what? Just are you up for it? Yes, I'm willing. Yes, I'm willing to learn and do the work. So then I can kind of unhook from that commentator that's trying to be a wet blanket on the process. So and some people call it the inner critic or whatever. I think that's really a number one thing practice to get engaged in is really noticing all of the commentary. Yeah, I.

Jonathan Fields (00:07:51) - Mean, it's interesting because you wonder where that commentary comes from. And there is this mythology that says if you're doing the thing that you're meant to do, that it should just feel easy all the time.

Cynthia Morris (00:08:03) - And I don't know anything that's easy all the time, do you? I mean, that's some kind of childish interpretation of the world that it should just be easy. And I feel like this is the thing that catches us unawares.

Cynthia Morris (00:08:16) - We're engaged in starting a business or a new job or taking something on because we love it or have a passion for it. That's only just the thing that gets us in the door and and hopefully it keeps us going. The thing I'm bumping up against and I think a lot of people bump up against is we really don't know how to do the thing we're trying to do. Who knows how to write a novel until you've written a novel? I'm even on my second novel, and the first one was written like it came out a decade ago. The world has changed. I have changed. Information has changed. So I'm learning all over again. I have to be willing to learn. I have to be willing to be humble.

Jonathan Fields (00:08:56) - Yeah. I mean, it's and I think that's an interesting point. The notion that hard is a part of even the right thing is something that I think we don't like to explore.

Cynthia Morris (00:09:08) - We avoid it. We're not used to it. If you just think about our lives, how everything is designed to avoid any kind of friction or difficulty, We want to get what we want.

Cynthia Morris (00:09:18) - We want it now. We want it to be easy. We want to have air conditioning. And so a lot of us are are used to being comfortable. So when we bump up against something in the work that's difficult, either emotionally difficult or we just don't know how to do it, we think something's wrong with us instead of just recognizing that the job is just hard, the job is hard, and you don't really know how to do it. So you have to invest a lot more in dedicating yourself to the craft itself than to your ego's ideas about whether you're good at it or anyone will care. The thing, too, when you were talking about this myth that you get into something you love, it's easy. Doubts seemed to plague us the whole way through the ebb and flow. Right now I'm my doubts are kind of turned down. I'm starting to have fun with the novel. And so I'm focusing more on that than on wondering if it's good. But they will come back right before launch and they'll be fierce.

Cynthia Morris (00:10:14) - So I feel like learning how to develop our emotional receptivity. I wanted to say resiliency, but that implies kind of stealing ourselves against the difficulty versus using the emotions to make the work better. And for me, writing a novel is a lot about emotional intelligence and conveying that through action and characters. So I have to have some emotional intelligence to go along with that. All the emotions and stuff that are rising to the surface as I navigate this project are completely useful in the project itself, and I wonder if that's true for other projects as well.

Jonathan Fields (00:10:57) - Yeah, I mean I imagine it would be. I mean, the question that's coming up though, for me is I'm curious what your take is on this. How do we distinguish between the hard that is just a natural part of a process that is still right and good for us and that we like we do want to keep traveling down and we and there's great, great things on the other side of it. And the hard that's actually telling us this actually isn't right for you.

Cynthia Morris (00:11:26) - Well, there's always a moment for that reality check of feedback. And that's a big, important moment where you want to work with somebody or get feedback from somebody who you can trust and who knows what they're doing and who has your best interest in mind and who will also be able to give that kind of reflection back. Here's where it's not working. Here's where you need to develop something. I don't know that anybody can really say like, no, you don't write a novel. You're not good at this. You have to really try maybe do 12 drafts before saying, I this is the wrong thing. I think people give up too quickly. I think they give up when it gets emotionally difficult. And I really want people to work through that, live through that. It feels like to me it's an indicator of what's important. And he's asking what's important about that. So rather than run from the difficulty, another thing that has helped me all parts of the creative process are not fun. The beginning is fun because the idea is really buoyant that floats us and that we get into the craft element.

Cynthia Morris (00:12:32) - We have to actually learn how to do the thing we're doing right. A good sentence. One of the things that I find really helpful is looking for what's fun in every phase of the process. So even if it's like, Oh, I really don't know how to do it, this happened to me. I really didn't know how to do what I was trying to do, and I was really working at it and giving it time and I was like, What's fun about this? Because it's not fun. And then it's like, Well, what's fun is I really like a challenge. And what's fun is I really love to learn and I can feel myself learning. I can feel myself kind of grinding up that hill to understanding. And I really thrive when I'm there. And so that might not be fun, like in the easy vein, but I'm engaged fully and that feels great. That's what I want.

Jonathan Fields (00:13:23) - Yeah, I love those questions. I remember a chunk of years back hearing somebody who was would lead adventures and lead groups of people through adventures in sort of high altitude trekking.

Jonathan Fields (00:13:36) - Describe sort of like the different types of funding. He's like type one fun is basically it's fun when you have when it's happening and it's fun when you remember it. Type two fun. It's really hard, kind of grueling and kind of annoying and kind of sucky when it's happening. But when you reflect back on it, it's like, That was awesome. That was incredible. I learned so much. We accomplished so much. I feel I would do it again. And then Type three fun was just like, It's hard and evil when it's happening and it's hard and evil when you think back at it. But it's funny that they label them three types of fun and not sort of like one is fun, one is something else, and then one is just not fun at all. He's like, No, they're all like, There's something about it that we can convert to the experience of fun in our human nature.

Cynthia Morris (00:14:20) - And I think converting that, that alchemy of the experience when you're engaged with a creative project, you are changing.

Cynthia Morris (00:14:27) - That's also what I'm really interested in as a coach and change agent. Who do we become as a result of what we're doing? So you of course, you're going to bump up against the hurdles that you couldn't overcome last week. Now this week you're going to overcome them because you're growing and changing. I think that's one of the best things. If you I was working on a project earlier this year and every day I was just not having fun in every day. I didn't like the the piece of it that I was doing. I still like the project itself. And I kept saying, just stay with it. This is, you know, part of what you have to keep going through. And then it came to a point where it was like, you know, no, this is not actually good for my mental health and I'm stopping this for right now. I was doing a book proposal, so I set that aside to focus on writing the novel, and that feels much better. I'll be able to revisit that later.

Cynthia Morris (00:15:22) - But I think if you you have to know if something's just difficult and you just need to rally your resources to help you through it, or if it's like this is actually making me feel really bad about.

Jonathan Fields (00:15:36) - Yeah, I mean, it's an interesting idea. Also, the notion that the process of becoming is less about how we experience what comes easily to us and more about how we move through what comes, what comes with difficulty and how that shapes us. And that makes a lot of sense to me that that would be and it's an interesting way to look at it that, you know, like it's the adversity that we know is going to come even if the thing is right, even if it's, you know, hard. And how we respond to that is a critical part in who we become. And also, if you then zoom the lens out and ask yourself, who do I want to become? Who do I want to be? Do I want to be the person who basically every time something gets hard, I make a left turn out of the experience? Or do I want to become the person where every time something gets hard, I think about like, is this the hard that's telling me to back away or the hard? That's just a part of something that I really still want to make happen.

Jonathan Fields (00:16:34) - And then figure out like what skills, what practice, how what knowledge base do I need to acquire to move through this That will then allow me to move through future experiences and then also become a person who identifies as saying when these things happen, I'm the person that says yes to them, that embraces them as a challenge and an opportunity to learn and to grow and to become like the next best version of myself. So it's an interesting like I mean, even zooming the lens out, it's sort of like an identity level exploration as well.

Cynthia Morris (00:17:09) - Oh, for sure, yeah. I think a lot of it. A lot of the problems that kind of get in our way really are just ignorance. We just don't know. We didn't realize it was going to be so hard. We didn't realize it was going to take years or and so and part of the problem is a lot of us are isolated from our creative peers and friends. And so it's all too easy when you come up against those problems and hurdles to think it's you and to take it personally rather than knowing because you're in a community of creative peers that this is just part of the job.

Cynthia Morris (00:17:47) - This is just the job you didn't know you signed on for. Now you know, are you going to recommit and stay with it?

Jonathan Fields (00:17:54) - I mean, it's interesting. I think there's that experience and then there's the exact opposite. I was just thinking, as you were describing that, of my past life experience working many years ago in a large law firm where I was a lawyer and I was on a team of lawyers and we were on a project, you know, super high stakes under like a huge deadline. And I would look around the room and nobody was going home. And we were working like, absolutely just unbearable hours with the stress through the roof. And I'm looking around the room and I'm thinking to myself, I'm melting down. I'm like, I am definitely physically, psychologically, emotionally. I am getting closer and closer to being complete and utter wreck by the hour. And I'm looking around and I'm not seeing that in anybody else who are my collaborators, my teammates, my co-creators. And I wonder if also like you can have the opposite experience as well, where in a team experience, if you're in a company like somebody who's listening to this, like a lot of people will be working on a project in a team and there's almost like people don't want to show the fact that they're struggling or that their this just isn't making sense to them or they really don't know how to get to the next thing because of their concern that that admitting that owning that to the rest of the people makes them look like the weak link.

Jonathan Fields (00:19:11) - So everyone just kind of pretends that that everything is going great and there's no adversity and they're not struggling at all and they're normalizing a fake experience. And then for you, if you're the one who's like really melting down, it just really makes you feel like, okay, so I'm I'm the one who shouldn't be here. Like, rather than saying, no, we're actually kind of all in this, we're all feeling it. And, you know, it's interesting. I think there's the one side of creating an isolation where you have like that experience you described. And then there's the other potential when you're creating in a collaborative environment. And if it's really healthy and functional and the leader has actually set the tone of we can be open and honest and vulnerable here because that's how we do our best work and we're human beings and we expect this. That's amazing. But oftentimes the tone that gets set is actually the exact opposite. And that can be that can create a really funky dynamic for us.

Cynthia Morris (00:20:13) - Well, just that scenario you described, the work of law being case is extremely complex.

Cynthia Morris (00:20:22) - And like the brainpower and stamina, the brainpower, the faculties, you need to do that, you have to be sharp. So it's exactly the opposite of you're just a puddle. What kind of work are you producing anyway?

Jonathan Fields (00:20:35) - Yeah, and I was that was my experience too. Like I increasingly I knew, like with every hour, I was like, I'm drifting further and further from my best self. Oh, and the work product that I'm putting out is getting not better and better, but worse and worse. And this is just dysfunction on a level that that is not good. But it was but that level of dysfunction was kind of normalized. Yeah.

Cynthia Morris (00:20:59) - That was your.

Jonathan Fields (00:21:00) - Culture and yeah, and I mean, that culture doesn't work for me and I think for a lot of people it doesn't. But that is the culture in which they exist and are expected to work well.

Cynthia Morris (00:21:09) - I, you know, I don't work in a team environment, so I don't have those concerns. But I feel like most people are struggling at some point or another with whatever they're doing, no matter how skilled or adept you are, if you're taking on big things, you're taking on things that are outside of your reach.

Cynthia Morris (00:21:27) - So I want that to be normalized and I hopefully that there are teams that are more collaborative and supportive and like, Hey, help me out with this. I can't see what what the next step is.

Jonathan Fields (00:21:39) - Yeah. And I think increasingly people are demanding that of the culture within the teams that they work in. And over time, hopefully that shifts, that becomes more of the culture that that exists across multiple teams and organizations and industries. I do want to loop back to, though, to this question of how do we discern between the hard that is legitimately telling us this is not right for you, like this is like you need to actually, you know, you've hit a point where there's enough Intel telling you like whatever led you to say yes to this is no longer valid and it's not right for you versus the hard. That's just part of any generative process, no matter what domain you're actually exercising yourself in. I know for me, some of the questions that I tend to ask are whenever we start something, we start it based on, in part a whole bunch of assumptions and leaps of faith and in part some fact.

Jonathan Fields (00:22:37) - We do know some things and some things are just kind of guesses. They may be informed guesses and they or there may be a couple like Real Wing. It's also like mixed in there.

Cynthia Morris (00:22:46) - How long is it going to take? No. Right. Like, you never.

Jonathan Fields (00:22:50) - Know. Right. And the further we get into the thing, if we're really paying attention, the more facts start to replace our assumptions and our leaps of faith. And sometimes those facts reinforce why we said yes to this in the beginning. Sometimes we don't understand what they're telling us, and sometimes they do the exact opposite. They're basically telling us what you thought this would be and could be actually can't. And maybe it's time to really reexamine your commitment to it and whether this thing should be moved forward at all.

Cynthia Morris (00:23:23) - What you just said, what this thing that you thought it would be, can't that happens all the time. I would say just every single thing never turns out exactly the way we thought. That's just part of the creative process.

Cynthia Morris (00:23:36) - It's going to be different. It's going to have a different completely different shape. But what's it doing to you is the question? And I think you hit the nail on the head earlier when you said it was taking me further and further from my best self. So if you just think of like I'm on a continuum, I'm either going to kind of like be stable here and inert or be moving toward better or moving away from my my true self. Does the project take you toward that or away from that? I think that would make it really clear, like this is this is turning me into someone and something I don't want to be. I need to course correct.

Jonathan Fields (00:24:08) - Yeah. No. And I think that's a really powerful lens to look at it through. And then part of the question also for me is if now you've reached a moment in what you're doing, where you've got enough new information, where it's telling you you need to course correct in order to actually like continue along, Does that course correction hold enough of what made you say yes to the project in the first place for you to keep going or does it change it so significantly that the reason you said yes to start with no longer it would exist in that project, even if the project could then be successful? It's like, okay, we've hit this point, the data is showing us we need to pivot to go over here because that's what's going to make it successful.

Jonathan Fields (00:24:51) - That's what the market wants, whatever it may be. You know, at that point you can say, okay, so this is how it needs to succeed, but am I still the person that would be the one to keep driving it forward in this new direction? It does. Enough of the reason that I said yes in the beginning exist in the pivoted pursuit to keep me still engaged. Like would I have said Yes? I think this is a big question for me. Would I have said yes if I knew what the direction was in the beginning? After like the post pivot direction was in the beginning, would have said yes to that in the very beginning. And if not, should I keep going? Or is it just basically let somebody else step in and let the team step in? Or just this like it's not for me?

Cynthia Morris (00:25:38) - Well, what you're saying is you're talking about a pivot that's based on what the market wants and a product. And I think that is one of the challenges when you're creating something that you want to have your creative lane.

Cynthia Morris (00:25:51) - But if you want to bring it to the market, it has to honor those market rules or whatever. So I think that's a bit of maturing too. You might get in there and realize, Oh, I didn't realize it to be commercial, it has to be this. That's something you might want to consider. Before that just happened to me, I had to completely redo the beginning of my novel. I had to add a scene that I don't really think it's okay. I think it's it's working, but I don't love it. I don't love starting that way. But because I'm writing a commercial novel, this is kind of the way you want to start that. So I'm willing to accept the constraints of that genre. It doesn't take me away from the core essence of the book. It just means I have to kind of, you know, send some signals early on. So people understand what they're reading. Yeah.

Jonathan Fields (00:26:40) - And it's like it's a trade off, you know? Is there enough of the creative process in the way that you like to engage with it still left in the project for you to say yes, even knowing that there are certain things that would need to be done a certain way in order to increase the likelihood of commercial success.

Jonathan Fields (00:26:56) - And I think that's something entrepreneurs, artists, creators deal with all day, every day.

Cynthia Morris (00:27:02) - That's and that's a big that's a big piece. That's a big sticking point, I think, too, because, you know, if you are creating something to sell and take to the market, you have to be considerate of who it's for. And so I keep thinking about this. I forget who said it, but in regard to memoir writing, they said the first draft is for the author to kind of understand and work their way through in the second draft is for the reader. And so a lot of my clients are, you know, the first draft is figuring out what it is, and then the second draft is for the reader. So I consider rather than thinking like, Oh, I've got to knuckle down under the constraints of the genre, I think I want people to read this. I want people to be affected by it. And me making those kind of changes to conform to the genre is, to me, an act of generosity to the reader.

Cynthia Morris (00:27:55) - It's not just me being in my little creative world thinking, Well, come over here. And like it or not, it's more like, Let's meet halfway. I'm flowing in this genre and I'm willing to do that.

Jonathan Fields (00:28:07) - That's so interesting. I have I tend to take A44 pass approach to writing, and also I write prescriptive or I write nonfiction, which is different. For me. The first pass is for the fact. The second pass is for voice. The third pass is for punch. It's really bringing my true voice into it. And then the fourth pass is for defense ability.

Cynthia Morris (00:28:27) - How do you bring your true voice at that point? Like what? What's the switch? You flip a thing that helps you get there.

Jonathan Fields (00:28:34) - I really just think if I was just in a conversation with a friend and nobody else was looking or paying attention, how would I talk to them about it? And what how snarky would it be like, What lines would I drop? Like kind of bring more humor into it.

Cynthia Morris (00:28:47) - I just did that this morning and it was fun. I had my character. I'm like this a little wacky. I don't know this is going to work, but it's fun and it's it's expressive. And so it's exactly what you're saying, bringing yourself even with the constraints. That's. That's a fun challenge.

Jonathan Fields (00:29:02) - Yeah. No, 100%. Well, I think we have explored this in a lot of different angles, like the notion of zooming the lens out, you know, just acknowledging the fact that whatever we're doing, even stuff that is right, even stuff that is good, even stuff that we we like love on a meta level, is there going to be moments that get really hard where it's going to put us into a mode where it's, you know, we have to, as you described, we really have to just pause and say like, where's the fun in this? It doesn't mean that it's wrong for you. It doesn't mean you're off course, but it also probably is a good moment for you to not just put your head down and grind your way through it and do the work, but also ask some bigger questions about who you are, what this work means to you, what it's telling you about its viability and where it wants to go, and whether you want to sustain and continue through and and how that might shape you if you say yes to it.

Cynthia Morris (00:29:56) - I have a name for that. I call it commitment points. And that may come, you know, at a big moment, like, am I really committed to this? Or maybe every dang day where, like, why am I doing this? And I felt that with the proposal, I had to commit every day and set aside those doubts and fears. So I feel like that also helps to normalize rather than just like, Oh no, I'm in this crisis of faith. Should I keep going? It's like, Oh, here's a commitment point. What exactly is my commitment now? What is feeding that commitment? I really use values a lot. Where are the values that are at play in this project? And that that helps me a ton.

Jonathan Fields (00:30:36) - Yeah, I love that. It's a it's a great reframe and kind of normalizes it by giving it this name that just feels like, okay, this is just a normal part of the process. It's a commitment point.

Cynthia Morris (00:30:45) - Yeah, A client the other day is like, I'm struggling with this.

Cynthia Morris (00:30:47) - And I was like, Well, let me just say right now, like, what you're doing is really hard. Look, what you're trying to do is a difficult thing. And rather than like Pollyanna and be like, Oh, I want to go back to understanding the word fun is a word I use because that's part of who I am and how I operate. But that word may not be relevant to listeners. When you're looking at a project, it might not be what will make it fun. It might be what makes this meaningful or what makes this easier in the moment. And the last thing to to piggyback on what you said, it isn't just about grinding through it. It's a lot of walks. It's a lot of time in the garden. It's a lot of time on my Shakti mat. It's a lot of time interspersed with the work and consequentially it's really slow and I'm learning to just adapt to that, that it's okay. I can trust that even though I'm a turtle now, it's still happening.

Jonathan Fields (00:31:38) - Yeah, love that. I often say my best writing happens when I'm not writing because it's completely true. No.

Cynthia Morris (00:31:45) - That's what I love. Like all these ideas sparking in your head, an idea comes and you're like, Oh, that, I'll do that. That. So to me, bottom line, no matter how difficult it is, this is me, Cynthia. I just want to be engaged. I feel so happy and alive when I'm engaged and wrestling with a big project that's just beyond my reach. So I've learned to be okay with feeling completely incompetent. I don't even know if I can do it. All I know is I can keep showing up to try. So even when it's hard and I feel that it kind of sucks, I am engaged and that's how I want to live.

Jonathan Fields (00:32:18) - Yeah, I love that. And and, and that meta question also is, is is walking me towards my best self or walking me away from my best self I think is something to keep revisiting.

Cynthia Morris (00:32:28) - I love that.

Cynthia Morris (00:32:29) - And this definitely is I feel like this work that I've done in this book since January, it's now August. It's the most therapeutic thing I've ever done.

Jonathan Fields (00:32:37) - I love it. And that feels like a good place for us to wrap today as well. Cynthia, as always, things for going deep into topics that we all experience and for all of our fantastic listeners, thanks for showing up. We'll see you here again next week.

Cynthia Morris (00:32:52) - Bye.

Jonathan Fields (00:32:55) - Hey, so I hope you enjoyed that conversation. Learned a little something about your own quest to come alive and work in life and maybe feel a little bit less alone along this journey to find and do what sparks you. And if you'd love to share your own moment and question with us, we would love to hear from you. Just go ahead and click on the submissions link in the show notes to get the details on how to do that. And remember, if you're at a moment of exploration looking to find and do or even create work that makes you come more fully live, that brings more meaning and purpose and joy into your life, take the time to discover your own personal sparketype.

Jonathan Fields (00:33:31) -  for free at Sparketype.com. It'll open your eyes to a deeper understanding of yourself and open the door to possibility like never before. And hey, if you're finding value in these conversations, please just take an extra second right now to follow and rate SPARKED in your favorite podcast app. This is so helpful in helping others find the show and growing our community so that we can all come alive and work in life together. Until next time. I'm Jonathan Fields. And this is SPARKED.