How to Transform Yourself From Job Seeker to Job Shopper | Madeline Mann

Jonathan Fields: [00:00:08] So have you ever felt like the traditional job search process just isn't working for you? That sending out resume after resume into a black hole? Praying for any response is a soul crushing cycle of rejection and disappointment. If so, you're not alone. What if there was a way to rethink the job hunt? That's where we're headed in today's SPARKED hot take. So joining me is Madeline Mann, a human resources leader and career strategist who turns job seekers into what she calls job shoppers. Through her coaching and insights gained from years as a corporate recruiter. She has reached millions with a radically fresh mindset, which she shares in her new book, Reverse the Search How to Turn Job Seeking into Job shopping instead of Chasing Opportunities. Madeline's job shopping approach. It empowers you to attract them by deeply understanding what companies need. And strategically positioning yourself as the solution. So imagine if you could walk into interviews as more of a consultant than a desperate applicant, coming from a place of value rather than neediness. So if you're just starting out, or a seasoned veteran drowning in rejection, get ready to radically rethink your job search strategy with fresh perspectives that could finally land your dream role. So excited to share this conversation with you! I'm Jonathan Fields and this is SPARKED. Hey, so I want to let you know about something, especially if you're a coach, consultant, HR pro, or leader through our related research and training organization, Spark Endeavors.

Jonathan Fields: [00:01:44] We've been developing next generation tools to really help make better, easier, and more confident career decisions like the Sparketype assessment, a powerful tool that helped well over a million people now and has generated over 50 million data points, making it one of the largest studies on work satisfaction in the world. And as the Sparketypes have grown into this global phenomenon, coaches and consultants, HR pros and leaders, they began asking us for help unlocking the power of the Sparketype tools and body of work for clients and teams. So a number of years back, we created a professional level training and certification. The certified Sparketype Advisor Program, and enrollment is now open for the April training and for those ICF coaches. This training also provides a whopping 40 continuing education credits. So check out the details, see if it feels right, and apply today to save your spot at sparketype.com or just click the link in the show notes. Now. You know the big question on my mind. I think we're in such interesting times right now. Um, and probably capital I on that word. Interesting. And there's so much change, so much groundlessness and so many people re-examining that thing they call work, you know, like the job. And you make a really strong argument basically saying that job search as we know it is broken. Take me there.

Madeline Mann: [00:03:13] Really what we've found is that there's several things in the job search that have made it really awful for the job seeker. First is that even though you are a complex person with a whole mosaic of different interests and skills, really you need to focus on just one area in order to get noticed, and that can be really challenging for people. The second piece is that online applications is actually the worst thing to ever happen to the job seeker. We think that it's this great accessibility. But really what's happened is that these roles are flooded with people who don't even want the role, who are unqualified, burying the people who actually want those roles. And then the third piece is that we've found that when it comes to an interview process, the person who lands the job isn't the most qualified. It's the person who sells themselves the best. So what I've found, the reason I've dedicated my entire career to this is because job interviewing and job searching is a separate skill set.

Jonathan Fields: [00:04:24] So let's break this down a little bit. Then the three factors that you just noted above is this a new thing, or have these always been a part of the the struggle of finding a job that feels really well aligned for you and then actually landing that job? Or is it like a yes and thing like these have always been around, but circumstances or tech has changed. That's exacerbating the problem.

Madeline Mann: [00:04:45] I would say that these things have always exist, always existed, but it's the intensity and the ferocious nature that people have to be competitive has dramatically expanded the the the fact that so many people know about every job opening and the fact that now we have remote roles, people think that remote roles are amazing for the candidate, but they're actually phenomenal for the company because now they can choose anyone in the country, or sometimes even anyone in the world, making the competition for these roles so fierce that if you're kind of sloppily putting together your resume, or you don't completely understand the goals of the company and the needs of this role, it used to be that you could get away with that if you had some core skills and you did well enough in your interview, you could still land the offer the stakes have raised. And now becoming a job shopper is not just a luxury, it's a necessity.

Jonathan Fields: [00:05:42] How has AI played into this. Because as you're describing this I'm kind of nodding along like this all makes sense. And then you see reports or just people talking about their personal experience where on the one side you know, you're looking at organizations and they're also just desperately trying to figure out how do we make this work better on our side, too? I don't I'm not somebody who looks at the corporations as evil overlords or as, you know, like these people who are trying to do harm. I think everyone's actually trying to to do best for whatever is in their interests. But I look at I on the side of the organizations, and I would imagine they're looking at all sorts of ways to use it to help make the, quote, vetting process more efficient and effective. And then I also hear about folks on the job searching side who are tapping platforms to try and help them show up in the best possible way, but also potentially almost like flood the application sphere at scale using AI. Like, what are you actually seeing here?

Madeline Mann: [00:06:37] Okay, yes, let's look at both of those worlds. So if we just start with the job seeker world, I've recently opened up roles and helped hire for roles, and the cover letters that I'm seeing have transformed. They all are very cover letters before were very similar. Now they look all near identical and all kind of use the same formulas that you could just kind of scroll through all the people answering and responding to application questions. And it's now a matter of, oh, this person sounds like a human. This person doesn't sound like a human. As well as the number of applications has exploded, because there are so many tools that speed up the pace at which people can apply. They can produce these resumes that are customized using AI. They use these tools that will auto apply for them to hundreds of jobs. And so it is making it actually so much worse for a lot of the qualified candidates, because they're getting buried on the other side. There's the employers using AI. Now, I think job seekers tend to overestimate how much AI is impacting their candidacy. There is sorting software and emphasis on sorting. It's not necessarily rejection software. It's not you know, it's not necessarily that this that the software is, is mostly making decisions. It's mostly trying to help. And this can get it wrong. The software can get it wrong. But at the same time, if you are someone who follows the strategies that I teach or other career coaches teach, you will find that some of these tools are actually finally helping you to get seen. Because if 80% of applications are from people who never read the job description and aren't qualified, which that's a very normal number. Uh, then you want to make sure that whatever tool the company is using is, is unearthing that 20% that you are in. And so that's that's the balance we have to we have to look at. Because I don't think that these tools are meant to filter out people who are very deserving. It's meant to get rid of all of the noise that's happening.

Jonathan Fields: [00:08:49] Yeah. And that's why I was saying, like, I like to assume benevolent intent on both sides. You know, everyone's just trying to do the best they can. And in the most efficient and effective way that they can and get get the outcomes that they want. You know, and I think at the end of the day, everyone wants an outcome where it says like, we've got to we've got a great role and a great position and a great person who's in that. And it's just it's a great fit for the role, for the company, for the culture and all those things. So, you know, I'm a big fan of anything that actually helps make that easier for everybody. You use the phrase earlier in our conversation. And this is sort of like a this is a core part of your philosophy and a core idea in your book Job Shopper. Deconstruct this for me. What are we talking about when we're talking about being a job shopper?

Madeline Mann: [00:09:30] The mentality that too many of us have fallen into in the job search is that we are beholden to these companies and organizations, and it creates this unnatural dynamic where we are, you know, waiting patiently for a company to reach out to us, that when we're in the interview, we're sitting and we're just our strategy is to answer the questions to the best of our ability. When I say absolutely not, we cannot just wait passively. We should be job shoppers because in the end, I have led human resources teams. I have hired thousands of people. I've seen the inside companies go above and beyond to find the right talent. They will pay big money and take longer to hire those roles. If they are really looking for the right person, and you can use that to your advantage. I anyone who is hired knows that they will take an extra few weeks and spend more money on a salary, rather than hire someone too quickly and have it be the wrong hire, and then have to train them and terminate them and all of that nonsense. Anyone, anyone on the inside knows that. And so if you can position yourself as in a league of your own, as someone who's an irresistible candidate, and that doesn't have to do with you having that Ivy League pedigree or that additional certification or, you know, your aunt being the VP at the company. It's not about that. It's about understanding what the company needs, their challenges and their problems, and you being the solution to that and getting rid of this. Focus on your own story and your own. You know, your own tale that you want to spin about yourself.

Jonathan Fields: [00:11:16] Yeah, that makes so much sense to me. Like, I've, I've owned my own businesses for so many years right now. But earlier in my career, you know, I worked for a massive federal bureaucracy. I worked for a giant company, a giant law firm in New York. And I went through a detailed interviewing processes, and I'd been through a number of different times. And one of the switches I was flipped and I think this is what you're describing was, you know, there was a moment where I remember like, oh, just pick me, pick me, pick me. I want you to want me. And then I started realizing I actually don't want to do the job that I want people to take me for. I don't want to be in this company. The more I'm interviewing and learning about the culture and the people, I'm like good people, I'm sure, but they're not my people, and this is not what I actually want to be doing. And I think this is when I switched into what you would call the job shopper mode, where I was like, you know what? I'm interviewing them as much as they're interviewing me, like, I have agency and value, and I actually want to have a conversation where I want to know things, to figure out whether this is a fit for me. And what was interesting was it changed everything. Like the interviews then became these conversations where all of a sudden, also like the offers became much more consistent. There was something about the way that I showed up that shifted. Is, is that part of what you're talking about?

Madeline Mann: [00:12:28] That's exactly it, because in the second version, you showed up more like a coworker, more like a consultant that has already been hired. And you're saying, okay, how do I how do we figure this out? You know, what are the components of this role? What are the challenges we would have to solve? And when people see you showing up that way, they first get a much more realistic view of who you are. It's this toxic positivity that we've taught job seekers where they go into interviews and they say, I'm good at everything. I like everything, I want to do this job. Whereas a job seeker who says, these are my skills, here's what I'm working on. If more than 40% of my time in this role is focused on these skills and these tasks, it's probably not going to be very motivating for me. Even though I'm good at them. I really want to focus mostly on this. And usually when you say those things, yes, you could get disqualified. But a lot of times because you've been asking these inquisitive questions, because you've been having a dialogue, you actually know what they're looking for. So even if you're, you know, soft, disqualifying yourself for certain aspects of a role, it's not for this role. So you really having that dialogue with the company and knowing your values, knowing what you want, it can completely change the vibe of the interview and it leads to many more offers.

Jonathan Fields: [00:13:49] Yeah, And that lands so true to me as you're describing that. I literally remember, like, being in this process years ago and having a conversation. I was talking to a chief marketing officer of a company, and the company sounded really cool to me, and I was I loved the work that they did. I loved, but the role that we were talking about, we just had a very open and honest conversation. At the end of the conversation, CEO says something like, hey, listen, I think we're we both understand you're not right for this role, but there's something here. And like, let's keep talking because, like, I feel like we're a really good fit. Um, I like you, and I like what you have to offer. I wonder if there's something else. And that never would have happened had I just been trying to sort of, like, perform for the role on paper. Is that something that you see.

Madeline Mann: [00:14:37] That is a very common happenstance with my clients. People don't believe me when I say this because it's so unfamiliar to them. But when you show up with a mission, with a purpose, and with a this strategy, the company gets to know you and so many of my clients will get rejected for one role at the company, and then a role will be created for them, or they'll be placed into another role. Why doesn't that happen to other people? Well, it's because they don't trust you. Straight up, they don't trust you like job seekers. Optimize for time because we can only spend so many hours in a day, you know, spending all of our time on these these job opportunities. Companies optimize for risk. So they are making sure that they are not making the wrong hire. And one of the things there is that we need to de-risk ourselves when we are in the interview by giving them an impression of what it would be like to work with them. Like, you know, we we have apps where we can do a free trial. We have we can taste a bottle of wine before we buy it. But how does the company know what it's like to work with you before you start? And a lot of companies or interview process does a poor job of demonstrating that. And so you need to go into the job interview with a plan so that you shine in the interview, even if your interviewers are not very good at what they do, which most interviewers are, even if they're practiced, they're not very effective.

Jonathan Fields: [00:16:08] So one of the things that you talk about also, and I think it really ties into this part of the conversation, is this notion of for you to show up that way, you also have to know who you are, you know, and you have to know what you care about and what you don't care about, what matters and what doesn't matter, and what you're genuinely looking for and what's what isn't meaningful to you. Take me into sort of how how you would approach developing this level of self-knowledge.

Madeline Mann: [00:16:36] You are absolutely right. We cannot do any of the work of landing an incredible job. If you don't have the foundation of knowing exactly what your next career move is. And I will tell you right now, most professionals don't have that answer from my coaching thousands of people. That is the hardest question to answer. So if your listeners are struggling with that, you are in very good company. And so what you need to do is you need to throw out these ideas of follow your passion or, you know, do something you love and you'll never work a day in your life. Those are those are mentalities that have worked for some people but are often leading to a misguided path. So what's better? And I talk about this in depth, in reverse. To search is following the wealth formula. So there's three components here. The first is your values. So this is what's going to prevent you from hating your life. So that's really what do you value right now. And that's probably going to change throughout your career. Earlier in my career it was I want growth opportunities. I want to get promoted fast and I want to build really great relationships. I was very much in a social mode later in my career. It was I really want stability, I want balance, I want low stress. So those are your values, right? So get clear about what you actually want. Because a lot of us have roles that are actually misaligned with those things. The second piece is that people want to have a job that they enjoy.

Madeline Mann: [00:18:00] And they often look to their hobbies for that. But the fastest way to hate a hobby is to make it your job. So what instead is fun is building mastery. How do you build mastery? You choose jobs that play to your strengths frequently, so your strengths are the things that you're good at, but it's also things that you enjoy doing that other people dread. That is where the money is. And so finding those things and, uh, building that mastery is where you're going to have a lot of fun. So figure out what are those strengths that are are bankable. And then the third piece is market demand. So you are having a job to get paid. I think that if you are upset about the career path you're in that doesn't pay enough. I wish you'd gone back in time and and looked at the career trajectory so that there are two things I want you to do is look at the salary over time. It's okay. If the salary starts off low, that's fine. That's normal. But over time, does that fit what you want? And second of all, are the roles increasing over time? So are more companies hiring this year over year or is it diminishing? And if you have those three components and then find your opportunities that fit those three things, talk to people in those roles. Be very discerning about do they actually fit what you want? You can really land on something amazing.

Jonathan Fields: [00:19:22] I mean, I think that's a great framework. Of course, you probably imagine I would throw and discover what your Sparketype is in there, which is which also is sort of like a variation on strengths to a certain extent, depending on which strengths assessment you're looking at. Some are more talent based, some are more character trait based. You know, our research shows us that these are innate impulses that give us certain feelings but also allow us to show up. But I love that extra tweak that you have there that says, you know, like if it's something that a lot of other people don't want to do, but there's value in the marketplace for it. That is a really interesting way to to focus in. Um, we found this with one in particular, Sparketypes, the Essentialists, which is all about creating order from chaos, a systems process scale. A lot of people really don't like this. They value it. It's incredibly important. It's necessary, and it's often well compensated, but they want nothing to do with it. And we found Essentialists can, once they realize that this is actually something that's unique about them. And it's really a high demand and a lot of people don't want it. There's incredible demand when they actually realize, oh, if I lead with this, it positions me in a very different way.

Jonathan Fields: [00:20:25] The the last part that you mentioned, I think is really interesting too, which is looking at sort of like the the longitudinal view of what, what salary is like if you start out at this entry level job, where is the typical person five years and ten years and 15 and 20 years maybe. Right. That's really interesting to me. Here's my question about that. When you look at that, you know, you could look at this and say, okay, let's take for example, in the agency world, the creative agency world entry level jobs are often notoriously low paid. Yeah. But then if you look at the level of directors like creative director and stuff like that, they're often extraordinarily well paid. But there are very few people who actually ever get to that job. They're very few of those jobs. And there are very few people who sort of like make it through to those jobs. So what's your take on looking at not just what the the full sweep of sort of like entry level to high level, but also looking at but what percentage of people overall end up actually being able to be employed at that level to sort of progress all the way there without having to in some way make a meaningful change?

Madeline Mann: [00:21:37] That's exactly it. Uh, like before I went into the human resources field, I was in journalism. And if you look it's just low low low low low low low pay. And then maybe when you make it big you can you basically get all the pay, uh, that, that no one else gets. And so you need to make a decision there for me. I was not willing to to, you know, grind away to hope that I'm going to get that lottery ticket. But for some people, they're willing to do it, or they have a financial situation, or they have a partner or something like that where it they can float until that happens. But I want us to go into that career path, eyes wide open. Yeah. You cannot be complaining that you're mid-career. You know, your manager level and the creative field and and that your pay is low. We knew this. We knew this going into this. Right. And you have to also look at how many years is it going to take me to get to that director level. Is it going to take me ten, 20, 30? Again, we need to understand. Maybe you can speed it up. Sure. Um, and that there's strategies to do that, but make the decision very consciously. And one thing I talk about in the book is that when I put out a poll to hundreds of thousands of people, 54% of people said that when they chose their career path, it was because they stumbled into it. And that is the issue that we're dealing with here is I don't care if you make that decision consciously, but 54% of people are not.

Jonathan Fields: [00:23:07] Yeah. So it's really about like the fundamental message is eyes wide open, you know, like if you want to just go for it and take the risk and see like and believe that you will be the, the the long shot. Awesome. But do it with your eyes wide open about the reality of like who actually and how many people actually make it to that point.

Madeline Mann: [00:23:23] Absolutely.

Jonathan Fields: [00:23:28] One of the things I want to ask you about also, and this is one of the chapters that you write about, and you referenced it earlier in our conversation, is this notion of building your own brand. I think a lot of people have heard over the years you got to build your own brand, but in this context, I feel like it lands a bit differently. So like in the in the job search, when you're out there looking for a new job, why is it so important for you to actually have your own brand?

Madeline Mann: [00:23:52] Absolutely. So I saw a post on LinkedIn the other day from someone who, a CEO of a startup, and he said, oh man, this past year I, I spent, you know, $140,000 on LinkedIn recruiter seats. So this is basically he these seats, these these accounts that his recruiters and his hiring managers are using to find candidates on LinkedIn, to then interview them and then pay those candidates to work for them. And companies are spending just insane amounts of money on external recruiters in these tools. And the issue is, is that the so many people are the best kept secrets in their industry. The best people are not necessarily landing the interviews. The people who are the most findable are Ah, and the way we've been taught to market or brand ourselves in the job search has been to use all of this fluffy language. Things like, I'm a seasoned, innovative executive, you know, who transforms businesses. That is not how you get found. You need to understand that there are specific keywords. There are specific skills that they're looking for. There are specific industry related terms. And so you need to start thinking about your presence as searchable as you should show up in. It's almost like an element of SEO. And I found that when I teach my clients this, they'll say that over 50% of their interviews are from companies that they never applied to. It's just inbound them saying, hey, I found you. Will you please interview with us? And they say it's the easiest job search they've ever done.

Jonathan Fields: [00:25:37] I mean, that's so interesting. So let's take an example then with an example of doing this effectively, be something like saying, hey, listen, uh, product management seems like a really interesting space for me. I'd love to get into. And then maybe you're sort of like entry level in that space, or maybe you're not, but you're like, this sounds really interesting to me either way. Would you then would this then involve saying, okay, let me learn everything I can about this, let me develop my own thoughts about this, and let me start sharing these thoughts in a regular, consistent public way so that I can demonstrate that I'm interested, that I'm I'm knowledgeable about it, that I have my own opinions and point of view and strategy and thoughts about it, so that people who are then searching on the phrase product manager might find me and be and not even have to look in my resume, but then just kind of be like, oh, this person actually is is thinking in a really interesting way about this. I'd love to know more. Is that an example of what you're talking about here?

Madeline Mann: [00:26:34] That is an example. And in the book that is actually considered a bonus tip.

Jonathan Fields: [00:26:38] So okay.

Madeline Mann: [00:26:39] You don't even have to create content online or on LinkedIn in order to be highly visible in your industry. I do think it is a very good strategy to implement, but I have worked with so many people that have found that for some people, creating content is and you know, with Sparketype like, you know, this like creating content for some people is the most painful process they could ever imagine.

Jonathan Fields: [00:27:05] I think for most people, actually.

Madeline Mann: [00:27:07] Yes, for most people, for most people, for others, like for me, for instance, I it comes very naturally to me. I love to share. Um, and so I've recognized that. And I said, let's not opt let's not try to strengthen your weaknesses, let's optimize your strengths in the job search. And so if you are someone who is naturally good at creating content, I would say that strategy just named is incredible. If that's not you, then that's okay. You can pass on that strategy.

Jonathan Fields: [00:27:38] Yeah, I mean, I think that's good because it and I think a lot of, you know, what you write about a lot of your body of work here. What I love about it is it's not sort of like a one size fits all formula. You're basically saying, here are a whole bunch of ideas, here are a whole bunch of strategies, right? And here's a menu to choose from. You're a different person, you know. And some of these are going to be really effective for you and some not. And some of them you're just going to love doing. And some of them you're going to be repelled by. So like find the way to show up, to choose the things that let you show up in a really authentic way, or else you can pick all the items on the menu that in theory, work. But if it makes you, like show up in a conversation, like with IC written all over you, it's just not going to go well.

Madeline Mann: [00:28:23] Right? And yeah, exactly. It depends on your personality. It depends on your career, what level you're in, the type of role you're going for, all those types of things. And so exactly. That's why I try to teach the why behind everything so people can realize, all right, I'm going to apply this and try this. Because the worst thing that people do in the job search is they keep doing the same thing over and over again. That's not working. The job search is not a numbers game. If you're dozens of applications deep and you're not getting interviews, something is seriously wrong. If your job search feels like a full time job, something is seriously wrong. You got to reverse the search.

Jonathan Fields: [00:29:03] Yeah, and I love that piece of advice, because so often we'll just get into that position and you get a whole bunch of just everything is going, no no no no no no no. And you're like, this is just brutal. You know, the market is awful. And yes, there may be challenging times. It may be a tough thing that you're trying to get into, but it's hard to take responsibility for the outcomes of this process. But at the same time, like along with responsibility comes agency. And it gives us this feeling like, oh, like we can actually do something to change the outcomes.

Madeline Mann: [00:29:33] That is a huge message that I hope people hear. People think that they are helpless in the job search is you submit your application and then just, you know, let Jesus take the wheel. And that's not the case. There are so many different touch points that you can do to speed up the process, or even give a better impression between interviews. If you felt like your interview didn't go so well, or have a company create a role for you where there wasn't one. People think that this this sounds way out of the box, but it happens every day and it's just a matter of understanding the rules and how you can bend them. Mhm.

Jonathan Fields: [00:30:12] Yeah, I love that. It feels like a good place for us to wrap up. So I'll ask you this one question. Somebody listening to this. They're nodding along. They're like this makes so much sense to me. I really want to dive in what's sort of like a good, fairly universal opening move in the shift from being a job searcher to being a job shopper.

Madeline Mann: [00:30:31] I would say that a really good shift is to. I want you to go into your next job interview with a plan and maybe a very simple. When I say a plan, let's make it even simpler. Let's find the number one accomplishment. That is two things one, it's highly relevant to what you're going for, and two, it's impressive. Your goal is any means necessary to share that accomplishment in that interview, and you'll be surprised if that's your mission. You'll be surprised at how you integrate it into why do you want this job? Or you know what, tell me about a time you had to overcome adversity. Whatever it is you work that in, and that is the first step to start saying, I'm taking control of this narrative. I'm going to make sure that they know the things they need to walk away from this interview to say that was the best interview all week.

Jonathan Fields: [00:31:26] Hmm. Love that. Thank you.

Madeline Mann: [00:31:28] Thank you so much for having me.

Jonathan Fields: [00:31:31] And remember, if you're at a moment of exploration, looking to find and do or even create work that makes you come more fully alive, that brings more meaning and purpose and joy into your life. Take the time to discover your own personal Sparketype for free at sparketype.com. It'll open your eyes to a deeper understanding of yourself and open the door to possibility like never before. And hey, if you're finding value in these conversations, please just take an extra second right now to follow and rate SPARKED in your favorite podcast app. This is so helpful in helping others find the show and growing our community so that we can all come alive and work in life together. This episode of SPARKED was produced by executive producers Lindsey Fox and Me, Jonathan Fields. Production and editing by Sarah Harney. Special thanks to Shelley Adelle for her research on this episode. Until next time. I'm Jonathan Fields and this is SPARKED.