Jessica Chen | How to Bring Your Quieter Self to a “Loud Culture” workplace

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Jonathan Fields: [00:00:09] So have you ever felt like you just don't quite fit into the culture of your workplace? That the way you naturally communicate in a quieter mode, it doesn't align with what's expected and rewarded in a louder culture? If this resonates with you, you'll really want to listen closely to today's conversation. My guest is Jessica Chen, an Emmy Award winning journalist, author, speaker, and CEO of the global business communication company Soul Caste Media. And Jessica has taught over 2 million people how to improve their communication skills at work. Her new book, smart, Not Loud How to Get Noticed at Work for All the Right Reasons, dives deep into this very issue. So in our conversation, Jessica and I explore the tension between what she calls quiet culture traits like listening more than speaking, keeping your head down to work, and avoiding conflict, and the contrasting loud culture traits that are often expected and rewarded in many workplaces. And we unpack strategies for how those from quieter backgrounds can get noticed and make an impact without compromising who they truly are. If you've ever struggled to advocate for yourself and your ideas, if you felt unseen despite doing great work, or if you simply want to better understand the dynamics of communication styles and company culture, you'll find real value in the insights that Jessica shares. So let's dive in. I'm Jonathan Fields and this is SPARKED. I love the the topic that we're diving into today. You know, you have a strong background in communications and broadcast and you take a different sort of entry point and angle on this topic. So I am a card carrying introvert. I have also, in very past lives, worked in massive organizations as well. So I know what it's like to be that person in that room, in the conference room, and sort of like looking around and being like, hmm, one of these things doesn't quite fit in the culture that we're in. You make a really interesting distinction between what you call quiet versus loud culture. So take me there. Yes.

Jessica Chen: [00:02:18] And that is the thesis of this book. And I thought it was a very it was really important for me to highlight this, because the truth is people, when they want to improve their communications, they'll pick up a communications book and it'll teach them all the techniques and strategies. But I found that a lot of that friction, that and that's what I call a communications friction that, that we might experience, we have to acknowledge that sometimes it's because of things like the way we were raised or our personality and what we might gravitate towards. So you said it perfectly. It's quiet culture and loud culture, and I'll share with you kind of how I define it in the book. And I look at it in four ways. So quiet culture traits are defaulting to listening more than speaking. It is just putting your head down, working hard, you know, hitting your deadlines and doing as you're told to do, doing the work. And then when it comes to celebrating your wins, for example, well, you don't really do it because you don't want to draw attention to yourself. So you do good work, but you kind of keep it to yourself. And then finally, it's what I call like, how do you manage conflict? Most people who grew up and who embody quiet culture traits tend to avoid conflict, to maintain that harmonious environment.

Jessica Chen: [00:03:33] Now, on the flip side, it's loud culture traits and people who embody loud culture traits tend to speak up quickly, confidently, and are very assertive, and they're not afraid to share what's on their mind when it comes to working. Yes, it's about working. But they love to socialize, connect, network like they know that, or they see it as part of their work. And then when it comes to talking about their wins, when they have something great happens, a client says, good job. They finish a project. It isn't just about celebrating it internally. They want to let everybody know. And then it's not about avoiding conflict. It's kind of like, how can we have open and transparent conversations? Now, in this book, I really highlight how in my perspective, I feel in most workplaces, big organizations, global organizations, these organizations tend to expect and even reward those who embody loud culture traits. But for folks like me, maybe. Maybe you. It's like for those of us who are more quiet culture, it feels so much harder. So this is what I experienced personally myself when I first started as a journalist, and I realized I had to quickly learn how to put myself out there. But it wasn't to be loud. If that's not my style, it's to find that balance which we can talk about too. Yeah.

Jonathan Fields: [00:04:53] So tell me more about what that experience was for you. Sort of like in the early days in broadcast environment.

Jessica Chen: [00:04:58] Well, when I, when I say newsroom, it is exactly how you might imagine a very, a very chaotic newsroom might sound and look like you go in there's police scanners, firefighters, scanners. People are on the phone running around TVs blaring like it's a loud environment. But not only just environment. The people who are in news a lot of times are naturally very charismatic, very extroverted, uh, very good at advocating for themselves because they have to advocate for their ideas every single day. But when I first started out, I would sit in these, we call them editorial meetings. We would sit in these editorial meetings and people would just see me as, oh, you're just, you know, you're the quiet girl in in that meeting. And even when it was my turn to pitch my idea, I found it so hard like to do it. And I remember I would look around at my colleagues and they would be like, this is what I think. Or if my manager was like, hey, I want you to do this, or I want to sign this project to you. Sometimes they would be like, you know what? I actually don't think that's a good idea. I think we need to go this route. And even just like the brazenness of and the confidence that they had in the way they showed up and carried themselves, I was like, whoa. And that's kind of like what I was talking about. I realized that if I wasn't going to if I can't get better at this, if I wasn't more visible, I would just be overshadowed and in many ways overlooked. So that was that aha moment for me personally, where I was like, I gotta learn how to do this and do it in a way that feels right. Yeah.

Jonathan Fields: [00:06:30] And that last part I think is so critical, right. Because it's what you said earlier as well. It doesn't mean like I need to figure out how to get loud, you know, because that really I think so often I think that's what we're, we're sort of taught to do. Well, this is the way things are. You've got to learn to sort of like. Be that person that you see who's doing all those things. And then even if you can adopt that as a short term strategy, I think it at least in my experience, it feels so inauthentic to who you actually are that there's this like disconnect that people read, they pick up on. They're like, huh, something's not quite right here. So it's I found that, you know, I can mimic those behaviors, but it doesn't land the way that you'd expect they'd land.

Jessica Chen: [00:07:08] No, and it doesn't. And that's the thing that I talk about. It's that if quiet, for example, is our style, we shouldn't try to be loud because it's not authentic to who we are. And I think that's why I title the book smart, Not loud, because I do think there is power in those who embody the quiet culture traits, because there absolutely is power in the way we think, the way we show up. And that should be honored. So the key is like, how do you find that balance?

Jonathan Fields: [00:07:38] Yeah. And you bring up and you kind of already mentioned it, but like there is this notion of quiet culture bias. You know, there is it's sort of like, you know, enterprise level companies especially, or once you get more than a couple of people, the expectation is that the right way to be is the loud way to be. But I think it starts even earlier than that. I think about in, you know, school and so often you'd have a class where it's all about like a big part of your grade is class participation is like you're just constantly incentivized to step louder, louder, louder, more forward, more front and center. And I'm curious for you also because, you know, you have, you know, on camera experience as well. So how did that affect you? Sort of like when you're literally standing there like, you know, like talking into a camera, but at the same time know that you're speaking to potentially thousands or millions of people.

Jessica Chen: [00:08:24] Yeah. I want to first talk about the quiet culture bias really quickly. And the quiet culture bias is, you're right, the perception. And in many, many workplaces where if you do tend to be on the quieter side, people assume, does Jessica care? Is she engaged? The bias is they assume that. But that is what we're saying. It's a bias. Just because somebody is quiet, just because they might be more reserved, just because they might not be the first one to speak up in a meeting, it doesn't mean they don't care. So I think it's really important for people who and, you know, for folks who do tend to resonate on the, the, the loud culture side to acknowledge that and not assume like, oh, this person doesn't care. They don't have opinions because they absolutely do. Now going back to your question.

Jonathan Fields: [00:09:11] Yeah, it was when when you're somebody who's, you know, like sort of like wired as on the quieter side, but like part of the expectation of the actual job that you do is to be very front and center.

Jessica Chen: [00:09:22] So it's funny because when I started out as a journalist and I mentioned this, I was very quiet. And I always joke how, gosh, starting out on TV as a journalist was probably the best master class in communications because as you can imagine, every single day you are presenting on camera, you're out there, you're interviewing, you're engaging. And so in many ways, I had to quickly learn all those communication skills. And that's part of the reason why, after about ten years in use and after winning an Emmy Award, I was like, you know what? I can actually teach all the communication skills that I learned as a journalist. And they were amazing tactical skills, and I can now teach it to professionals. And so when I left and I started my own business, I saw that. And I guess I shouldn't be so surprised, but I saw a lot of folks who ended up wanting to work with me, and our company were folks who struggled with that quiet culture, loud culture, and so we could address that. And then I could teach them those communication skills that they needed, because it wasn't just about what you said, it was also about how you said it to really make an impact.

Jonathan Fields: [00:10:30] Um, one of the things that you drop into in your work, and also in this book is something you describe as, as cultural reframes these, these four different reframes and take, take me into this because I think they're really interesting. You know, when you're starting to think about like, how do I actually how do I what do I do about these things? How do I understand it better? And what are some some ideas and strategies?

Jessica Chen: [00:10:50] Yes, I love talking about these reframes because this is the cultural balance that I'm talking about. It's not about being quiet or loud. It's like, how can you find that perfect middle ground? So the reframes are and I'll go into them in detail. But, you know, instead of thinking that you have to speak up and you have to be assertive, if that's not your style, that's not necessarily what you should do. The way to think about, and I think about it from a communication standpoint, is it's focusing less on the pressure you put on yourself of, oh gosh, I have to speak up. But it's about the quality of the message that you actually are trying to share, and you can make sure that you're giving good information by thinking about, really who's your audience and how can you bring as much value to them as possible. And I think this reframe is fantastic because it takes you the pressure. Of speaking up in that sense, out of it and more about other people. And it's like, how can I just communicate what I'm excited about so they know when it comes to doing work? A lot of times people say, well, Jessica, like, I have to work hard.

Jessica Chen: [00:12:01] And, you know, I just do the work that I'm assigned to do. It's not like I really have a say in it. My manager assigns me a project. I can't really say no. And so what I say to this is yes, if socializing, networking and all that stuff is not your favorite to do, I do think working smart is taking work you are assigned to do, and using that work as almost leverage to open up more opportunities for yourself. So the reframe for this when I call it is maximize every opportunity. So even though you might be assigned work you don't earn are not excited to do data entry that doesn't necessarily excite you, but you do it well because you're hard working, you're smart, you're diligent, but it's not just doing the work. How can you take that good work and maybe use it to ask for something else that you want, or take that work and use it as talking points to talk to a different department that you want to get to know. So that's what I mean. It's about working smart. And then when it comes to celebrating your wins and, you know, letting people know, for many of us, being humble, being modest, not having the spotlight on us is that's kind of our preference.

Jessica Chen: [00:13:13] And I get that. But at the end of the day, if you do good work, people need to know about it, but not in a showy way. So how can you do that? It's letting people know, and this is part of communications, how your accomplishments benefited others. We I just finished this project and look at how amazing it improved this for the team. So a lot of it is in how you approach it. And when it comes to if you have to deal with conflict, I wouldn't say it's about avoiding conflict because sometimes, you know, difficult conversations, they have to happen. It's not about avoiding it, but it's just asking yourself questions like, okay, I know I have to have this tricky conversation. What happened here? What do they know? How can I loop them into the process? I think tailoring and thinking and approaching it like that feels more actionable versus feeling like you have to, like, hide behind it. So these reframes for me, transformed how I showed up. And I think it's a new way of approaching work that feels balanced in many ways.

Jonathan Fields: [00:14:16] Yeah. I mean, that makes a lot of sense, you know, and and part of what you write about and speak about also is this and it really builds on what you're saying is this notion of as we step into our career, as we build a career, as we sort of like figure out what the trajectory is that we want. We want to start to be perceived as somebody who has some level of confidence and credibility and authority. And if we don't do those things, if we don't actually in some way allow people to understand our role in making really important things happen, it's it's hard for them to understand what your true contribution is. It's hard for you to build that credibility and authority resume. So it's like we're doing ourselves a disservice.

Jessica Chen: [00:14:57] Absolutely. And at the end of the day, the truth is people are busy. Your manager is busy, folks on your team are busy. And even though you are doing great work and they might see it at the end of the day, they're thinking about their own deadlines and the things that they have to accomplish. So you have to make it known. And and my whole strategy is, again, it's not about like, oh, look at me, look at me. Because at the end nobody likes that. But it's just highlighting the value that you bring, the benefits, the wins, and sharing that in a way that shows that you're excited. I think what I have found is if you're excited about something, most of the time, those on your team are going to be excited for you. So I don't think it should be seen as, oh, I'm being is this too self-serving? Is it selfish? Is it too much about me? No, because at the end of the day, work is about benefiting everybody. You just have to communicate that.

Jonathan Fields: [00:15:47] Yeah, that makes so much sense. You brought up a couple of different ways. You know, when you were in the newsroom, how so many people you walk in, it seems like everybody knows how to advocate for themselves and for their ideas and sort of like, like it's a rah rah, rah rah like mood in the place. And, and this comes up again in sort of like those reframes where you talk about how to navigate conflict. Because part of that is advocating for yourself. And I feel like a lot of folks who, like, are a part of that quiet culture. That is one of the big struggles. What are some thoughts on strategies or tools, or a way to really think about or rethink how to actually advocate for yourself?

Jessica Chen: [00:16:22] This is actually one of my favorite chapters in the book, and I had so much fun talking about it. Because you're right, advocating for yourself is hard for many people to do, but it's arguably one of the most important things to do. So I have this, uh, framework in the book, and I'm going to share with you this, I call it the Act framework, and it's what you need to think about when advocating for yourself. So Act stands for Act. Act. You got to act at work to advocate. So the first A is you have to ask for what you want. Asking for what you want is advocating for yourself. Because like we hinted earlier, you know what you want, but you can't assume other people know what you want, so you got to ask for it. That's advocating the C is, well, you asked for it, but you got to circle back. Oftentimes when we ask for something, that's just what I call planting of the seed. You ask for something, but maybe your manager is not ready to give an answer. I think many people, including myself and those who grew up in a quiet culture, following up, circling back, sometimes feels awkward. You're like, am I bothering them? I already said it. Like, maybe they're busy. Like, you give yourself all these excuses, right? Well, it's like.

Jonathan Fields: [00:17:33] We all, we all get those emails or DMs in our inboxes where somebody is like, just bubbling this back up to the top of your inbox and we're like, oh no, again, like, there's a reason it's not at the top of my inbox. And we don't we don't want to be that person, especially with, you know, in a dynamic where we know the person and there's a relationship there and we kind of like, well, we said what they had to say. They heard it. So like, who am I to keep sort of like pushing the issue. Um, and yet what you're saying is you kind of have to you kind.

Jessica Chen: [00:18:01] Of have to. Oh, well, you really have to. And you'd have to adopt this mindset of, you have to say it twice, like, literally and figuratively. And that's what I mean by following up. And you mentioned about this like, oh, but nobody likes it when people are always following up. And that's true. So the communication strategy that I share is when you do follow up, offer a new piece of information that wasn't in that initial ask. So it feels new, it feels timely, it feels fresh. So it doesn't feel like just circling back. Like it's not just that. So so that's the a C. So the C is circle back. The third one which is also a C is celebrate your wins, which is what we highlighted before. You got to talk about the amazing work that you do. And the reason why this is important is it builds visibility for yourself. And at the end of the day, visibility is how you can keep yourself top of mind for bigger opportunities. And then the final one, T, is turn down requests, basically saying no to things that just don't help you or can't serve you. And I know for many of us it's like, how can I say no? My manager told me to do this project or like I want to be seen as a team player. So the communication strategy that I share is it's in how you say no. So it's not just saying no, I can't. It's it's actually saying no. You know, I have like, you know, x, Y and Z that I have to do. But here are some other options that you can consider. So you're still giving the impression you're helping people. It's just maybe you're not the right one, or maybe now is not the right time. So you got to act. Act to advocate for yourself.

Jonathan Fields: [00:19:46] Yeah, that that last one about saying no, I think is really compelling for a lot of people. Also, in a very past life, I was a lawyer working in a like big firm in Manhattan. And I remember, you know, I was very junior. So I felt like I kind of had to do whatever I was asked to do. And in that particular culture, it was often, you know, 100 hour weeks. It was absolutely just a stunning amount of work and hours. And I remember working under 2 or 3 different partners at the same time. And they but they weren't coordinating. They weren't telling each other, you know, like, this is what Jonathan's doing and this is what Jonathan is. So it got to a point where I was working full time for like one. And then the second one was really piling on a second full time job, basically. And the third one sort of reached out to me and said, I need you on this project now. And I, I literally like it wasn't even a thing where I could have said yes. And I was sort of brought to my knees and I was like, hey, listen, I would love to do this project. It sounds really interesting to me right now. I'm actually, um, you know, like spending like this amount of time working with this partner and. This product and this amount of time working on this partner with this project. I'm unfortunately like, I just I don't have the bandwidth to do this for you, but I would love to reconnect when I a little bit of time frees up to see if there's still a need that I could help out with. I was terrified to send that email, but they were kind of like, cool, thanks for letting me know. I think so often we anticipate a response is so much worse than what it really will be. And do you see that happen?

Jessica Chen: [00:21:14] Oh my gosh, absolutely. And I love how you gave a real life example of how you basically embody that communication. You know, tip that I shared. It's like at the end of the day, you have to sometimes say no. And as difficult as it is, you just can't do it for for whatever reason. But what you did and what I liked about it is you offered options, right? You're like, you know what, I can't do it now. But, you know, maybe when, uh, next week or next month, when I have more time, we can follow up on this again. So you're not letting this partner, who, of course, is perhaps more senior, feel like. Wait a second, Jonathan. Not willing. You know, you're not letting him or her feel that way. It's like you're letting them know you still care. You acknowledge. But just right now is not a good time. So I love that you shared that, too.

Jonathan Fields: [00:22:00] Yeah. I mean, I learned from that moment. I don't always still do the same thing. I mean, thankfully I now have been working for myself and now I'm the person that people are like telling this to on the other side. You know, it's interesting, like in the context of sort of like doing this dance with quiet culture and like in a loud culture workforce. A lot of what you focus in on is the communication aspect of it. You know, like, but a lot of people don't also realize that a lot of communication is nonverbal. So it was interesting to see you say, like, let's also talk about the ways that we communicate that are nonverbal, how you physically show up in a space and how because I think we kind of think we don't even think about that, but it conveys so much, both positive and negative and being intentional about it, it feels like it's just so important.

Jessica Chen: [00:22:45] Yes. And that is why there I have a well, I should say in the communications world. Let me preface it like that. In the communications world we do say it's three things. It's the words that you say that your choice of words, it's your tone of voice and it's your body language. And research has shown your body language is arguably the most important in the sense of it's where people form and what influences their impression of you. So I talk a lot and very deeply on body language and how we need to think about the way we carry ourselves in person and even on video when we're still jumping on these virtual video meetings. Because at the end of the day, it's what people see, right? And even if you're not talking, people are still looking. And I think when I so when I work with folks on communications and people are often very surprised to find because we do a lot of like recordings and playbacks, they're like, wow, this is what I'm doing. This is how I look like, why am I, like scratching my arms so much? Why am I playing with my hair so much? Right? They don't know these things until somebody actually records them and points it out. But this all forms that subtle impression. And if we're talking about, let's say, public speaking, which I know is very nerve wracking for many people, gosh, either people go on the extremes, they are either moving around too much frantically, there's no intention behind their movements, or they are stiff as a board. The people who are the best at communicating, yes, their message is very important, but the way they carry themselves as they deliver the message is arguably even more important.

Jonathan Fields: [00:24:27] Yeah, and it's so powerful. You know, I think a lot of people look at, you know, Ted has become this like huge thing in the world of media and messaging and, and, you know, so many people have gone to Ted events and watched Ted talks and, and a lot of them, it didn't start this way as much on the Ted ones. But like, there's this red circle, there's a dot in the middle of the stage and you're kind of told, like, stay in the dot and don't move around. And but you're right. And I speak as well. I think so often I'm like, I'll be in the middle of a talk. I'm like, why am I over here on a stage? Why are my hands flailing? Why am I not just looking like slowly into somebody's eyes and having a conversation with them, like the physical presence? I think we just it's so important, but we just really don't think about it.

Jessica Chen: [00:25:07] Exactly. And you know, that Ted talk example that you're saying is like, even though he was stationary, maybe he didn't move out of that red circle, but maybe he was, you know, using other parts of his, for example, even facial expression that is part of body language. And, you know, just think about when you're engaging with people who who you're comfortable with, who you love, family and friends, you probably tend to be maybe a little bit more animated. You move your head left and right. You lean forward. You lean backwards. Your your your eyebrows rise up. Right. That is all part of engaging communications. But oftentimes at work, when we're in a serious meeting where we're doing presentations in that formal sense, all that goes out the door. So, yeah.

Jonathan Fields: [00:25:49] I feel like. Also, oftentimes our body language betrays what's coming out of our mouth. It's sort of like we're saying one thing, you know, you're really advocating for something strongly with your voice, but your body is slowly sort of like crumbling back, and you're wrapping your arms around each other. And like people, I mean, people can sense that disconnect. You do agree with that?

Jessica Chen: [00:26:09] Oh for sure. It's like, you know, when you're asking for something and you're like, I really care about this. I'm really passionate about this. So your words are saying like the right things, but then, yeah, your body language is communicating something entirely different. They're like, wait, but you don't seem that confident in it or, you know, so I think when we think about being an effective communicator, which is that which is the work that I do, communications, like we have to think about all three of those elements. It's what we say, their tone of voice and, and what we're showing with our body. And I think those who can effectively get their message across is very they're always very intentional about using all three because they're all tools. And that's how I would want people to think about it.

Jonathan Fields: [00:26:53] Yeah, I love that. So as we begin to wrap up this conversation, when you think about the work that you're doing right now, the communications work, and especially in this context of really understanding how to navigate, you know, if you're a quiet culture person, how to navigate this world of loud culture that you're in, what's sort of like one first step in, let's say, somebody listening to this like, oh, they're talking about me. Like literally like all these things I'm hearing, this is my story that they're telling what's sort of an easy first step into how they might think about or something they might think about doing or changing or shifting to start to feel more at ease and, and potentially, you know, like, really establish themselves more in a, in, in a culture that they're not going to change, but they can change the way they want to or they want to change the way they're showing up in it.

Jessica Chen: [00:27:38] Yes. And if that's the case, I want to say I'm so excited for you. So if you do tend to resonate with kind of like what we're talking about, I want to say it can get better, because maybe right now you might feel gosh, like, you know, disheartened, disillusioned, discouraged, right. Because you know, you are working hard, but it just seems like nobody really sees it. Nobody really acknowledges it. And you're just like, oh gosh, like how how do I talk about myself? Like, how do I put my myself out there in a way that feels right? And so I say it can absolutely be be better. You just have to be a little bit more strategic with how you show up. And and that is really the essence and the motivation for why I put this all in this book, because I, I remember back then when I was wanting to improve myself, I would pick up all those communications books out there and I'd be like, okay, this is these are the tactics I need to do, but no one could really address. Like the first. It's that mindset shift that needs to happen to feel like, wait a second, I can do it. It can get better. I just need to reframe and rethink it. And I and I want to encourage and empower those who might feel stuck at work. I call it, you know, a culture shock because you're stuck. You're stuck at work that it can't get better and you can find a style that works for you. You just have to learn kind of like how to put yourself out there, essentially.

Jonathan Fields: [00:29:03] Great. Thank you so much.

Jessica Chen: [00:29:05] Thank you so much for having me.

Jonathan Fields: [00:29:12] Hey, so I hope you enjoyed that conversation. Learned a little something about your own quest to come alive and work in life, and maybe feel a little bit less alone along this journey to find and do what sparks you. And remember, if you're at a moment of exploration, looking to find and do or even create work that makes you come more fully alive, that brings more meaning and purpose and joy into your life, take the time to discover your own personal Sparketype for free at sparketype.com. It'll open your eyes to a deeper understanding of yourself and open the door to possibility like never before. And hey, if you're finding value in these conversations, please just take an extra second right now to follow and rate SPARKED in your favorite podcast app. This is so helpful in helping others find the show and growing our community so that we can all come alive and work in life together. This episode of SPARKED was produced by executive producers Lindsey Fox and Me, Jonathan Fields. Production and editing by Sarah Harney. Special thanks to Shelley Adelle for her research on this episode. Until next time. I'm Jonathan Fields and this is SPARKED.