Kim Scott | How To Advocate for Respect in Any Work Situation

LinkedIn: [00:00:00] Linkedin presents.

Jonathan Fields: [00:00:08] So have you ever found yourself in a meeting? Eyes wide open, stomach dropping as a colleague says something that just cuts right through you. Maybe it was an off hand comment laced with bias or a flat out prejudiced belief masquerading as an opinion. Or maybe it was the sting of just outright bullying that left you feeling small and disrespected. So if you've been there, you know that awkward, powerless feeling all too well. But what if you had the tools to deftly disarm those moments, to respond in a way that honors your humanity while creating an opportunity for change? My guest today is Kim Scott, author of the groundbreaking books Radical Candor and her latest, Radical Respect. Kim's work has been paving a really courageous new path towards the kind of workplaces that we all deserve. Culture steeped in collaboration, where individuality is fiercely celebrated. Kim was a CEO coach at places like Dropbox, Qualtrics and other tech companies. She was a faculty member at Apple University and before that led AdSense, YouTube, and DoubleClick teams at Google. In other words, she's been an insider at some of the most influential and big companies on the planet. So whether you're an employee striving to be heard or a leader committed to cultivating a thriving culture, get ready. This conversation will open your eyes to the often insidious ways that disrespect subverts our best efforts, while also arming you with the tangible tools to create real and lasting change.

Jonathan Fields: [00:01:42] Let's dive in. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is SPARKED. And one last thing before we dive into today's conversation. We are incredibly excited to be sharing a new feature on the SPARKED podcast, Career Transformation Stories. We'll be inviting guests to share inspiring stories of their career transformations, from leaving behind unfulfilling jobs to pursue new, more inspired, energized, purposeful, and passionate paths. We're looking for people who've made the decision to spark change in their work lives. Now. This could range from stories of people who reimagined the way they do the same job, so it feels better to those starting entirely different roles companies, industries, or even launching their own endeavors. We're particularly interested in featuring guests who have taken or are open to taking the Sparketype assessment. This unique tool helps you discover your unique imprint for work that makes you come alive, and we'd love to explore how your Sparketype has played a role in your career transformation. So by sharing your story on SPARKED, you'll have the opportunity to inspire others who may be feeling stuck or unsure about their own career paths. And you'll also be talking to me about your journey and your sparketype.

Jonathan Fields: [00:03:00] So maybe we can tease out a few more insights and awakenings. So if you're ready to ignite, change and share your story with our community, we encourage you to apply to be a guest on SPARKED. We believe that everyone deserves to find fulfillment and purpose in their work, and we're on a mission to help you get there. To to apply. Go ahead and check out the form in the show notes now. When? You first pop onto my radar a chunk of years back, and I would imagine a lot of people with this concept of radical candor, you know, it really changed the conversation in so many ways. This notion of caring personally and challenging directly. And how do we do that in a way that we can scale and really make an impact and change things. So it's interesting to see the what feels to me to be not the evolution necessarily of this work, but like an important new canon in the work, when we when we step into this notion of radical respect. Yeah. Um, so we'll deepen into that. But I think really my my big opening question for you is when we are talking about radical respect, what are we actually talking about?

Kim Scott: [00:04:10] Yeah. You know, in many ways, radical respect, I think is the prequel to Radical Candor, because if you don't respect someone, you're not going to care about them, nor will you bother to challenge them. You know, you'll remain silent and maybe stew. And and when I'm talking about respect, I'm talking about there's two definitions of the word. One is around how can you earn respect for some skill? You know, if you're a basketball player, you have to earn. But that's not what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is the second definition of respect, which is really about the unconditional regard that we owe each other for our shared humanity. And if you know we can disagree with someone vehemently, we can hold them accountable for a mistake they've made. But we still owe them that unconditional regard for our shared humanity. We can't write them off as a worthless human being. And that happens, I think, too often these days. And so as I was thinking about, you know, how do we get to this radical respect? You know me, I love a good two by two framework. So I had to come up with another one. Uh, and, and for radical respect on the, on the vertical axis is optimizing for collaboration. Uh, and we know that collaboration works better than coercion. We know a collaborative hierarchy is is going to yield more sophisticated results than a dominance hierarchy. And on the on the horizontal axis is honoring everyone's individuality rather than demanding conformity. And again, like nobody well, maybe somebody wants to, but almost nobody wants to create a 1984 style dystopia. Everybody's marching in lockstep kind of work environment that demands conformity. There are probably.

Jonathan Fields: [00:05:55] A few people who do.

Kim Scott: [00:05:56] Actually, there are a few, but we won't. We won't name names. Most of us. Let's assume that everyone listening to your podcast does not want that dystopia to become real. And so what is it that moves us away from that kind of radical respect, which, you know, allows us to create workplaces that, you know, where the strength of the individual is the team and the strength of the team is the individual where you get the best of both worlds, where you get two good things, not just one. Yeah. So that's that's what that's what radical respect is about, what gets in the way.

Jonathan Fields: [00:06:31] And I love that, you know. And but But what I really love was sort of like the, you know, what you shared even before you shared the the classic grid, the classic Kim Scott grid. Um, um, which is this notion of there are these two sensibilities around respect, you know, like one is like you, you know, respect because you have earned the right to say, I like I am the best at the world at this, or I've accomplished this or like, yeah, but then there's this respect that it's just like the fact of your existence entitles you to have your humanity respected. And so often, I think, especially in a work context, those get conflated, you know, and people are like, you're not worthy of being treated like a human being until you show me that you can meet this sales quota or that you can, like, develop this new product. And it's like, okay, like I realize that, you know, a certain amount of respect in that particular domain, showing me that you can do this thing at a particular level. I get that you have to actually show up, has to be earned.

Kim Scott: [00:07:25] Yeah.

Jonathan Fields: [00:07:25] But for your humanity, they're not tied together like but so often we conflate that.

Kim Scott: [00:07:29] Yeah, yeah. And furthermore, if you're not showing me that kind of unconditional respect, it makes it much harder for me to earn the other kind of respect. You know, because I because you're much more likely to trip up when when you're being treated like something less than a human.

Jonathan Fields: [00:07:45] Yeah. Do you have a sense for why this tends to happen? Because my sense is it happens more often than we'd like to admit.

Kim Scott: [00:07:54] Yes, that is my sense as well. So I think, I mean, there's a million reasons why we don't wind up with radical respect, but I'm going to boil it down to three for us to, uh, bias, prejudice and bullying. These are the things that get in the way of that kind of unconditional respect. And I think they're one of the problems is that we often conflate bias, prejudice and bullying as though they're the same thing. But there are actually three very different things. And, you know, I'm sitting here in Silicon Valley and what do we do here? We solve hard problems. And how do you solve a hard problem? You break it down into its component parts. So let's start doing this with that problem as well. Bias I'm going to define as not meaning it. It's a it's unconscious bias is really what I'm talking about. But prejudice I'm going to define as meaning it. Prejudice is a very consciously held belief, usually incorporating some kind of unfair and inaccurate stereotype and bullying I'm going to define as just being mean. It's not about a belief conscious or unconscious. It's about sort of again, exerting dominance over someone trying to coerce someone to do something. And once we've broken the problem down in this way, it becomes easier to think what to say when you don't know what to say. And I mean, how when was the last time, Jonathan, that you were in a meeting and someone said or did something that was so cringe worthy that you just stopped it, you were gobsmacked. You know, you said nothing because you didn't know what to say. And then you woke up at three in the morning kicking yourself for not having said, has that happened to you in the last 24 hours?

Jonathan Fields: [00:09:33] I think it's happened to everybody. Like like, yeah, probably way too often than we want to admit. Also, yeah.

Kim Scott: [00:09:38] So here's what to say when you don't know what to say. If you think it's bias and you don't have to be sure. But if your hunch is, whatever it was that just happened was bias. Use an I statement. I don't think you meant that the way it sounded, and I statement can kind of invite someone else in to understand things from your perspective. And this can be a great way to be an upstander. One of my favorite stories about this comes from a colleague of mine who went into a meeting. She was at a small company and she went into a meeting with two colleagues, and they were meeting with a big company. So they walked in big long conference table for, you know, 60 people. And she sat in the center of the table because she had the expertise that was going to win her team the deal. And then her two colleagues, both of whom were men, sat to her left. And when the other the people from the other side came in, the first person sat across from the guy to her left. The next person sat across from the guy to his left. You're nodding. You've seen this happen before to everybody else filed on down the table, leaving her dangling by herself, one of the only women in the room. This happens also all the time. So she started talking. And when the other side had questions, they didn't direct them at her. They directed them at her two colleagues who were men. You're rolling your eyes. So you've seen this happen to. It happened once, it happened twice, it happened a third time. And finally one of her colleagues stood up and he said, I think we should switch seats. That was all he had to do to totally change the dynamic in the room, because as soon as he did that, the folks on the other side realized what they were doing and they stopped doing it.

Kim Scott: [00:11:10] You know, they didn't intend to do it. It was it was unconscious bias playing out. And, you know, why did he choose to do that in that moment? Part of it was that he just wanted to win the deal. And he. So there's a practical aspect to to being an upstander in these moments to intervening in some way. He also did it because he liked her and he didn't like seeing her ignored. So there's an emotional, almost a moral sense that I should do this for someone I care about. There's also sort of an efficiency aspect to his decision, because he knew that it was going to be easier for the other side to hear it from him. It wasn't that he thought she couldn't speak up for herself, but it was going to be easier for them to hear it from them. And so if his goal was to invite them in to understand what they were doing and to knock it off, it was better for him to say something than for her. And last but not least, he also did it out of pure self-interest because he didn't want to wake up in three in the morning feeling. You know, there's almost if you're in that if you're if you're if you're a silent bystander. I think very often you experience almost like, um, a moral injury, you know, uh, you feel slimed by someone else's if you don't say or do anything, if you don't intervene or in some way. So that's sort of the, the, the power of an I statement in the face of bias. I mean.

Jonathan Fields: [00:12:31] Before before you drop into moral also, I mean, what occurs to me as you're sharing that is there was a sorting mechanism that he went through, whether it was a conscious or not. Also and so he was trying to get the intention behind what they were doing because, yeah, if it was, if he was like, oh, this is actually straight up bullying, that response probably would not have been the one. Yeah. So he was like, oh, I get what's happening here. Like now this is the appropriate response.

Kim Scott: [00:12:54] Yeah. And he didn't have to be sure. I mean you can start with and I'll tell you a story. So here's another story where I thought it was bias at work, but I learned it was prejudice. And and if it's prejudice, I believe you need an IT statement, not an I statement. And IT statement kind of draws a line between one person's freedom to believe whatever they want, but they can't impose that belief on you. And I mean, easier said than done to identify where that line is. But anyway, so shortly after I had twins, I returned to work, or five months after. So this was maybe two days after I first returned from parental leave, and I was chit chatting with a guy before a meeting, and this guy said to me, oh, my wife doesn't work because it's better for the children. And of course, for me that was like a gut punch. Yeah. And I and but I didn't think he really meant it the way it sounded. So I tried an I statement. I said, oh, I decided to show up at work today because I wanted to neglect my kids, and I was expecting him to have your reaction, to laugh and apologize. And we would move on. But no, that's not what happened. He doubled down. He's like, oh no, Kim, it is really bad for your children that you decided to come back to work. Yeah. So now I know it's prejudice is a very consciously held belief this guy has And so you know and now I'm madder. You know if I think it's biased it's easier to forgive. Prejudice is a little bit harder. But I didn't want to get into a debate with him about child rearing.

Kim Scott: [00:14:23] I really didn't care what he thought about child rearing. And so I said to him, I used a nit statement. I said, it is a company policy violation for you to tell me I'm neglecting my children by showing up at work today, and that had the desired impact. He kind of got a little afraid. And I said, look, I'm not going to over delegate to HR. I'm not going to make a thing of this. But I think now I'm going to use an IT so an IT statement can appeal to the law, it can appeal to a company policy or it can appeal to common sense. So now I'm going to just appeal to common sense. And I said I it is my decision together with my partner how we raise our children. Just as it is your decision together with your wife, how you raise your children. And he kind of nodded. And he he thought this was probably true, but but I could tell there was I was still, you know, I hadn't fully gotten through. And so I said, also, I'm, you know, I'm guessing you don't want to read my research any more than I want to read yours. And then he started to laugh and he said, no, I do not. I said, neither do I. So like, let's, let's stay on the on our and and I'm not saying that solved all the world's problems, but it allowed the two of us to disagree about something pretty fundamental and still work together because we were selling ads. We were not raising children together, thankfully. So. So that's an example of using an IT statement. If if you realize what's going on is not bias but rather prejudice, right.

Jonathan Fields: [00:15:49] So so that takes care of two of those use cases then. Yeah. What if you realize in that moment, oh this is actually the next level. This is straight up bullying. Yeah.

Kim Scott: [00:15:57] Yeah. And this person is is trying to be mean. And you know, it's it's not a good idea to use an ID statement in that case because you know that if someone is trying to bully you, they're looking for boundaries to kick past. So there's no point really in engaging in that. And it's also not a good idea to use an I statement, an I statements and invite someone closer. And when someone's bullying you, you want to push them away. And I learned this from my daughter actually, when she was she was in third grade and she was getting bullied at school, and I was encouraging her to use an I statement, a mistake that a lot of parents make, assuming that this child didn't, you know, and I said, oh, you know, tell this child when you blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, I feel sad. And my daughter banged her fist on the table and she said, mom, they are trying to make me feel sad. Why would I tell them they succeeded? I'm like, that is a really good point.

Jonathan Fields: [00:16:52] Yeah, that makes a lot of sense actually. Yeah, yeah.

Kim Scott: [00:16:54] That's of course. But you, you know, I think very often we want to assume good intent, but sometimes someone has proved to us that they do not deserve that. We assume good intent. And so if it's bullying, if you think this person is just being mean, you want a you statement. You can't talk to me like that. Push them away. Or if that feels like it might escalate things, you question why are you behaving this way? What's going on for you here? Or even a you non-sequitur like, where'd you get that shirt? The point of the of using a you statement question or non sequitur is that you're not accepting whatever it is that that person just dished out to you. You're not in a submissive role. You're in an active stance. You're making them answer your questions. And again, this is I don't promise this is going to, you know, solve all the world's problems. But it can be really helpful when you're in that situation where someone said or did the cringe thing and you feel like you want to respond, whether because it was directed at you or because you want to be an upstander. If you think it's biased, use an I statement. If you think it's prejudice, start with the word it and see what comes out of your mouth next. Or. Or if you think it's bullying, start with the word you and just notice what you say next. I think a lot of this is a momentum game.

Jonathan Fields: [00:18:13] Yeah, no, that makes so much sense to me. And the shift from I to it to you, it's there's a shift. It feels like there's also a shift in power and agency that goes along with that. Yeah. You know, and you're like intentionally you're doing what you feel like you need to do not to give up this sense of like, I am here and I have a certain amount of power and control in this moment. Yeah. And you're sort of like sussing it out. Yeah. But one of the things that also comes up around that, and this is one of the things that you write about in the book, is this notion of what if that person on the other side, what if they are not actually from another company or from like from that quote, outside world? What if they're within, you know, like your own culture, your own business? And what if they're in a position of power relative to you?

Kim Scott: [00:18:54] What if this is your.

Jonathan Fields: [00:18:55] Boss, right. Like, how does that then change this?

Kim Scott: [00:18:58] Yeah, it changes it quite a lot and not at all at the same time, I mean, but but hierarchy is a thing and and we usually feel most people feel a little bit more afraid to challenge their boss than to challenge someone else. So I think it's really important to remember that when you layer power on top of of bias, prejudice, and bullying, things go from bad to worse. Very quickly. You get discrimination, harassment and physical violations. And so I think it's really helpful to think about what what are the steps you can take if your boss is bullying you or is biased or is and and, you know, in terms of radical candor, you want to have a direct conversation with your boss, but I don't want to put anybody in harm's way. So here are a few things you can do to make that direct conversation safer. First of all, document what is happening to you. Just jot it down. If you if there's someone you trust that you can email it to, you can create a contemporaneous record. Don't use your work phone or your work computer, you know. And and even if you have no intention of using this documentation to sue your company or your boss, it can be very helpful just to jot it down, because it's so easy to feel gaslit in these situations, and just jotting down what's happening can help you stay clear in your own head. The other thing you want to do is you want to build solidarity, uh, with others. You want to find someone who you can talk to, whether it's a friend or a therapist or a friend at work. In an ideal world, just to get sort of a quick sense of, you know, am I thinking about this in the right way? Right.

Jonathan Fields: [00:20:52] It's like, I'm okay, right? Like I'm not making this up like, this is real.

Kim Scott: [00:20:56] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, because it's so, again, it's so important that you not feel gaslit by this kind of behavior. And it's so easy. I mean, I can share some embarrassing stories about times when I gaslit myself, when my boss did outrageous things and I gave them way, way too much benefit of the doubt. And then the third thing I recommend that you do is that you locate the exit nearest you. In other words, figure out, like, how hard would it be for you to get another job? What are the other job opportunities in adjacent fields or companies that you could get? Because so often I think we feel more trapped than we actually are. And so just knowing what your best alternative to a negotiated agreement, what your.

Jonathan Fields: [00:21:43] Batnah is the classic batnah, right? Yeah. From. Yeah. Negotiation class.

Kim Scott: [00:21:47] Yeah, yeah. Before you go in and talk to your to your boss or whoever it is that's doing this stuff, you You want to talk to them directly, but but you want to you want to know how safe it is for you is there? And if you feel like you are well and truly stuck in that job, like, is there somebody who's couch you could sleep on for a while, but while you're looking for another job like and that will that will help you feel more confident and and then you want to go in and you want to have that direct conversation with the person and notice what they do. And I mean, you know, there are exceptions. If the person is is sexually harassing you, you probably don't want to do that. But but as long as you feel like you're physically safe and that you could get another job, it's really a good idea to have a direct conversation. Because so often your boss may not realize what they're doing. Power corrupts a little, bit of power corrupts quite a lot. And people, even people with good intentions, often behave in bad ways when they when they become a manager. And sometimes when you hold a mirror up for them, they they will actually not.

Jonathan Fields: [00:22:51] They're like, whoa, that's me in there.

Kim Scott: [00:22:53] Yeah yeah yeah, yeah. Sometimes they won't. That's why you did those previous three things, right? So you want to give them the opportunity to do the right thing at least. And and if they don't then you have here are other things you can do other escalation paths, but one is you can quit and get another job, hopefully. So um, so that's and it's really important. I've coached so many people who've been frustrated by the way their boss is treating them, and they haven't had that direct conversation. They haven't had that direct conversation. Now they have one foot out the door and they've given up, you know, before they even gave their boss the opportunity to do the right thing. And often they like the job, you know, and it's really a shame. So I always encourage people to, to try to have that conversation. But I don't want to be Pollyanna ish about it. Like go in with your eyes open and and if your boss responds in a way that is not acceptable to you, you can also talk to HR. Uh, ostensibly HR is there to solve the. Help you solve the problem and often HR really will. Like. So many of my closest relationships are with HR leaders. There are so many great ones out there. But I also want to acknowledge that sometimes HR is more a part of the problem than part of the solution. If you read Susan Fowler's post about her experiences at Uber, you you will notice HR doing the wrong thing over and over and over again. So go in understanding what the deal is with air and remembering that air. Sort of. There's an agency problem because they're supposed to protect the company. Protect the company from getting sued. They're also often working for very closely with the very leader who is mistreating you. And they're supposed to represent your interests so that that can be tricky. So you want to make sure you understand what the deal is.

Jonathan Fields: [00:24:46] And HR is often caught in the middle also, especially when you have somebody who is, you know, in a position of power, who is also from a revenue or productivity standpoint, they're they're rainmaker. They're like, and then, you know, they're not in the C-suite, but they're senior management. And then somebody who's underneath them is the one who's suffering in this in this dynamic. And air is like but the executive leadership team, like they're not they want me to do anything possible to keep this one person happy because they're producing so much for the company. But now their problems like, how do I. Yeah, it's it's a it's a hard place for them to be in. I think sometimes compassion for those people is important too. Yeah.

Kim Scott: [00:25:26] Yeah. And if you're one of those air people, there's great research from Bob Sutton about how a whole team's productivity improves. When you remove that, just remember it's better you can quote me on this. It's better to have a whole than an asshole on the team. Um, and there's data that backs that, uh, that assertion up.

Jonathan Fields: [00:25:47] Indeed. I think we've all lived pieces of that data. Yeah.

Kim Scott: [00:25:51] So yes, we have.

Jonathan Fields: [00:25:53] Um, yeah, it's really interesting also because as you're sort of like walking through this dynamic, you know, and this is one of the other things that you write about, I think is interesting is this notion of, um, like, what are the design principles that I can bring into creating a structure and the culture and the company so that this is kind of baked into it, you know, and you talk about inclusivity and you talk about transparency. You talk about accountability, which are words that we've all heard. Right? It's words that often are on a poster somewhere in the office. Yeah. And yet so often they're not actually embodied. They're not like they're just these aspirational things that aren't actually ever really. I don't even want to say enforced, because you would hope that there's something in there that just makes people say like, yeah, this is the way that we actually should be. This is the way human beings just should be to each other. But we.

Kim Scott: [00:26:35] Know that human beings are not that.

Jonathan Fields: [00:26:37] Right.

Kim Scott: [00:26:38] To each other. We've history, I mean, yeah. So I think it is probably the hardest lesson I learned in the course of my career was I had a series of bad experiences, many of which I describe in radical respect, where I was underpaid, I was sexually harassed at work, yadda yadda yadda. And so I eventually decided to start my own company. And mostly I started that company because I thought we had a good business idea and a great product idea. But I also started that company because I wanted to create a better working environment for everyone. And I sort of this is so arrogant and sort of foolish, but I don't think I'm alone. So I'll share my thinking, my flawed thinking. I was like, If I'm in charge, if I'm the co-founder and CEO, none of this bullshit is going to happen. You know, everything's going to be sweetness and light. And of course, it was not sweetness and light and all the same BS happened. And, and, uh, you know, the men negotiated harder than the women coming in because women know they get punished for negotiating. The men wound up getting paid more. There was, uh, you know, someone felt she was in a hostile work environment. She had good reason for feeling that. And that was really, uh, that was really disillusioning that all that kind of all those problems, the bias, prejudice, bullying, discrimination, harassment and physical violations, they happened where I was a leader as well. And so good intentions are not enough. A lot of leaders have great intentions and still really terrible things happen at their companies. And so I think it's important to remember that it's your job as a leader to design your management systems at every stage of the employee life cycle, to be fair, because if you don't bake that into your management systems, you're going to get systemic injustice every single darn time. Uh, so, so so you want to make sure that you're baking checks and balances into your management systems, and that you're also measuring what matters at every stage. You're quantifying bias at every stage of the employee life cycle.

Jonathan Fields: [00:28:51] Yeah, I mean, that makes so much sense. It's like, let's just codify this so that because some people probably will just like, that's the way I'm wired, that's the way I'm going to treat people. That's. But there will always be people who are not that person, at least if it's if it's written down somewhere, if like if you're hiring process if your assignment process, if you're a review, you know, performance reviews, if it's all baked into that, then you've got something to point to. Yeah, that says, this is the way that we all agree that.

Kim Scott: [00:29:18] Not just to point to, but people learn like if you there was one tech company that I worked with that had a very good I thought, uh, review system and you got rated on three different things on your results, on your innovation and on your teamwork. And if you got a bad rating on teamwork, you got a bad rating overall period. Like it wasn't like you could make it up with great results. The point is, uh, you know, this was a this was a company that truly understood that one person who bullied others brings the whole performance of the team down and and their results don't make up for it. Don't do enough to make up for for the damage that they do. And you also want to make sure that you that you have a policy about creating consequences for bullying on people's careers. So you cannot promote someone who bullies others. Not only that, you've got to give them the feedback why they're not getting promoted, and tell them that if they can't change their behavior, they're not only not going to get promoted, they're going to get fired.

Jonathan Fields: [00:30:25] Yeah. I mean, and we've all been in cultures where it was the exact opposite in a very, very past life, I was a lawyer and I started out my career working for the SEC, actually in the New York division. And, you know, federal government, it's sort of like, notoriously known for its largely unfavorable positions. Yeah. Um, and that created.

Kim Scott: [00:30:44] I worked at the FCC for a year, and I, I observed there you go.

Jonathan Fields: [00:30:48] Yeah. And it's it's fascinating to sort of like, look at the dynamics of who ends up staying for a long time and eventually, like, the longer you're there, you kind of have to get promoted up the chain and you end up in management. And. Yeah, um, that my, my short stint there about three years taught me so much about so much of what you're describing here. Um, you know, the one other thing I wanted to float before we close out is this notion of, um, of cycles, virtuous versus vicious cycles and how it ties into all of this. Like, what do we actually setting in motion by all these things that we're talking about here? Yeah.

Kim Scott: [00:31:24] I mean, if you allow, if you, you want, you want to create obviously a virtuous cycle, not a vicious cycle. And if you allow the elephant to stay in the room. In other words, if you don't disrupt bias, then you're going to get more. The people who are saying the biased thing or doing the bias thing are not going to be aware of what they're doing, and they're going to keep doing it, and then people are going to get madder and madder and madder, and you're eventually going to have an explosion. So like, let's just let's disrupt bias as it comes. And these quick two minute corrections in the meeting. Uh, so with with prejudice also like if, if, if that guy had been allowed to, if I hadn't pushed back on him and he had been allowed to let's say, uh, advocate that I shouldn't have I shouldn't travel for work since I had children. Like he could have actually maybe made that happen. And then I, you know, I would have been mad, furious. I wouldn't have done as well, and nor would other women, and that would not have been good for the results that like that would have created a vicious cycle. Same thing with bullying. If you don't. And this maybe is the most important thing for leaders to to understand that a huge part of the benefit of hierarchy and leadership is that it doesn't allow bullying behavior. And so it is your responsibility to to shut it down in the moment to create these conversational consequences, as well as to create compensation consequences and career consequences. And if you don't do that, then the bullying is going to get worse and worse and worse, and you're going to wind up in an environment where your best employees are going to leave. Eventually, you're going to wind up in in an environment that I call brutal incompetence. And that's like, that's a vicious cycle you don't want to get into. So that's why it's so important to intervene in some way to prevent this stuff from ruining your team's culture.

Jonathan Fields: [00:33:32] Yeah, it makes so much sense. You know, behavior breeds momentum. And the faster that momentum builds, the harder it is to sort of like like actually start to correct course and shut down and like create new behavior. So yes, I love that. Um, I love these ideas. Love sort of like this. The precursor, as you were framing it to radical candor, like, let's get underneath the hood, the prequel, the prequel, and the notion of like, let's start with really acknowledging this thing called respect and somehow sometimes how it goes off the rails and what we can really do to pay attention to it. Yeah, any sort of like if somebody's listening to this and they're nodding along and saying, yeah, this all makes perfect sense to me, where do I start? Like, what's the first step into really starting to explore this for somebody, maybe somebody like a rising leader or somebody who's really, you know, got that position or power in a company. What's the invitation?

Kim Scott: [00:34:18] Certainly read the book. Uh, lots of stories in the book and very practical, tactical tips. If you don't have time to read the book, do this one thing. Teach the people on your team to disrupt bias, to to come up with a sit down with your team. Come up with a shared vocabulary. What's the word or phrase that we're all going to use when we notice bias? I like to wave a purple flag and teach people also what to do when they're the one who's bias has been disrupted because it's I mean, I don't know about you, Jonathan, but when someone points out to me that I've said or done something biased, I feel ashamed. And when I'm in shame brain, my executive function is shut down and there's nothing there's no way you can point bias out to me that's not going to have that response. So you got to teach people to manage their own shame and and to say thank you for pointing it out. Either I get it and I'm working on it or I don't get it explained to me after the meeting, or I'll educate myself after the meeting.

Jonathan Fields: [00:35:15] Yeah, that makes so much sense. I think especially these days when when, you know, cancel culture is is an actual thing and a path to redemption is so often just assumed to not be on the table to to actually give people an idea of like, oh, this is what this is what you do when this happens and you're actually on the side of causing harm, even unintentionally or unwittingly, like, and there is a path back, you know.

Kim Scott: [00:35:38] Yeah, of course, that's I mean, a big part of what I did in radical respect is to write chapters for what to do when you're the person who's causing harm. Right. Uh, and, and how to become part of the part of the solution, not part of the problem. Because. And yeah. Is cancel culture really a thing or is it really a fear? You know, I'm not sure. I think it's more of a I think I mean it I'm not saying it's an irrational fear, but I think it maybe is an overblown fear. But like, that's what the shame brain does to you. You feel like when somebody I gave a talk and someone pointed out that I had said something that was biased and I felt like the world was coming to an end, you know, and it was not. I had just said something biased, but that is how it feels.

Jonathan Fields: [00:36:24] Yeah, no 100% in the moment. And I love that you provide tools to really think through, like when you're on that side of it too, like what do you what do you do with that?

Kim Scott: [00:36:31] Which we all are? I want to extend some compassion and grace for all of us because like I, I have bullied. I do not think I'm a bully, but I've certainly bullied people like and how to recognize it when you know, when you're when you're doing that and you're more likely to become a bully when you get a little power when you become a manager. So it's important to watch out for it.

Jonathan Fields: [00:36:51] Yes. Apparently, no matter how much we try, we can't opt out of our own humanity. Yes. It is not perfect.

Kim Scott: [00:36:56] No, no, we are not perfect. Uh, but let's, like, let's give ourselves, uh, let's hold ourselves accountable and also cut ourselves some slack at the same time.

Jonathan Fields: [00:37:07] That sounds like a great place for us to wrap up as well. Thank you so much, Kim. Thank you. Hey, so I hope you enjoyed that conversation. Learned a little something about your own quest to come alive and work in life, and maybe feel a little bit less alone along this journey to find and do what sparks you. And remember, if you're at a moment of exploration, looking to find and do or even create work that makes you come more fully alive, that brings more meaning and purpose and joy into your life, take the time to discover your own personal Sparketype for free at sparketype.com. It will open your eyes to a deeper understanding of yourself and open the door to possibility like never before. And hey, if you're finding value in these conversations, please just take an extra second right now to follow and rate SPARKED in your favorite podcast app. This is so helpful in helping others find the show and growing our community so that we can all come alive and work in life together. This episode of SPARKED was produced by executive producers Lindsey Fox and Me, Jonathan Fields. Production and editing by Sarah Harney. Special thanks to Shelley Adelle for her research on this episode. Until next time. I'm Jonathan Fields and this is SPARKED.