Samhita Mukhopadhyay | A different take on having it all

LinkedIn: [00:00:00] Linkedin presents.

Jonathan Fields: [00:00:09] So have you ever felt like you're being pulled in just a million directions, stretched incredibly thin as you try to juggle all the expectations of career and family and personal fulfillment? Or have you ever struggled with that narrative that women especially can, quote, have it all if they just lean in and work hard enough? In today's episode, we challenge this myth of making it and explore why it may actually be causing more harm than good, especially for women. My guest today is Sumita mukhopadhyay, a former executive editor of Teen Vogue and Feministing, and author of the book The Myth of Making It a Workplace Reckoning. Her writing has appeared everywhere from New York Magazine, The Cut, Vanity Fair to Vogue, The Atlantic and The Nation, and Sumita brings a wealth of experience and insight to this crucial conversation. She argues that the, quote, lean in approach of pushing individual women to the top has failed to create systemic change, and that collective resistance may be needed to redefine a more expansive and realistic success. And we discussed the toll that unrealistic work life expectations take on women's well-being, the challenges of advocating for change, and how we can start crafting more meaningful, sustainable lives and careers.

Jonathan Fields: [00:01:22] So if you've ever felt alone in your struggles to balance it all, this episode will remind you that you're not the only one questioning the status quo. So tune in for a really thought provoking discussion that just might change the way you think about work life and what it really means to, quote, make it. Let's dive in. I'm Jonathan Fields and this is SPARKED. There are plenty of things to dive into. You know, the certainly the opening move in in your new book, The Myth of Making It, is this just like head on saying, can we talk about this myth that we've all been kind of taught to buy into this, this idea that you can have it all? And how not only is that probably not true, but it's also probably causing harm in the context of our lives, especially in the context of women and doing the dance of personal slash business and career. Take me into this argument.

Samhita Mukhopadhyay: [00:02:28] Absolutely. So I really wanted to set the scene with the introduction in terms of just like, you know, really putting out there. I think an image we see on social media, a lot of like the woman who has it, all right, you know, you have the great job, you have the great outfit, you've got the relationship, the children. I mean, I didn't have all that at that point. But, you know, I kind of had the kind of dream job and people on, you know, like fawn over it. And I wanted to kind of pull back that, you know, look under the hood and say, you know, often we put ourselves in these positions and we not only can we not have it all, but if you do have it all, you're expected to kind of do it all. And what does that mean? And you know, it's 2024 and women are kind of still being peddled the same advice in terms of like, you know, you you can have it all, but you can't have it all at the same time, or you can, you know, and all of these little, I think, phrases that we need to kind of tell each tell ourselves and each other and pep ourselves up and, you know, kind of just like work through the pain. And I really wanted to take a moment to step back and say, when was the last time a woman actually got really relevant, specific career advice that applied to the complexity of the life that they're living and the growing kind of frustration that I think a lot of people are feeling that this narrative hasn't given them the satisfaction that they thought it would and that they haven't kind of they don't have it all. And if they do, it's literally killing them. And so that's the argument.

Jonathan Fields: [00:03:52] Yeah. And I mean, it's interesting, right. Because the way you describe it too, it's if that is the sort of the quote, dominant narrative, the thing that's been passed down. And it's interesting the way that you've sort of like chipped off one of these things that you hear often also, which is like, well, you can have it all, but not at the same time. It's sort of like we're trying to make accommodations, you know, to be able to still say the first part. Yeah, but say like, but here's a qualifier for it. Um, talk to me about the harm that you actually see being done in the context of like, like somebody's lived experience when somebody says, this is the narrative that I'm, quote, expected to live into.

Samhita Mukhopadhyay: [00:04:25] Yeah. And harm is an interesting word here, because whether it's harm or it's just simply untenable, I think is to be determined. Right. I do think that given that women are at the precipice, and I think in general, a lot of us are of a mental health crisis. I do think work is playing a role in that. But, you know, I think it's as simple as like being stretched too thin, being expected to, you know, be a great mom while you're also being a great employee, having to hide the reality of parenting, of care work from your professional environment. So not being able to bring your full self to the workplace or, you know, working and working and working as much as you know, your male colleagues may and never earn as much, you know. And so I think that there are all of these ideas and, you know, we work in a silo where we're kind of expected to just like, keep your head down, work hard, don't make too much noise. You don't want to be a squeaky wheel. You'll be rewarded in the end. And then women continually are not being rewarded for that. And so I do think that's a piece of just kind of what's coming undone a little bit right now is that this myth that we've kind of bought into this idea that if you work really hard, you keep your head down.

Samhita Mukhopadhyay: [00:05:29] You kind of can like day planner your way through, you know, parenting and work. And I just think it's falling apart. And I don't, you know, and I do focus on women. And, you know, my interest is in feminism and the gendered aspects of work. But I do think families in general are feeling this pressure right now where they literally can't manage all of the things that need to be managed in a household, while also maintaining what work expects of us these days. And I do think that's in general. Yeah, it's I think it's harmful to people. I think it's harmful to our physical health. I think it's harmful to our nervous system, to the health and happiness of our families. So I do think there's like a lot of impacts to this style of work and this expectation that you just work and work and work and earn and earn and earn and promote and promote. And then it's kind of like, okay, where do you end up after all of that?

Jonathan Fields: [00:06:13] Yeah, no, I think probably so many people have felt that, um, I've, I've worked with my wife for many years now. We run two different businesses together, and we raised a kid in New York City. And like, especially I remember, you know, like times when when our daughter was younger and, you know, we're sitting there trying to run businesses, we're trying to raise a kid, we're doing the New York City thing. And somebody once used the phrase to me, they looked at my calendar one day, sort of like caught a glimpse at it. And I think my wife's also and they're like, wow, that is incredibly brittle. And I was like, that is such an interesting word, because that word described to me not only the way that my calendar felt, but the way that my life felt at that moment. I'm like, that's the word. And it's not a good feeling.

Samhita Mukhopadhyay: [00:06:55] No, that's really interesting. Yeah, like it could break at any minute.

Jonathan Fields: [00:06:59] Yeah, exactly. Um, when you think about that narrative, then that's sort of like the you can have it all narrative if, if that is, if that is a standard that is not delivering on the promise of a life well lived. Take me into what you see as an alternative.

Samhita Mukhopadhyay: [00:07:14] Yeah. I mean, you know, I don't necessarily know that there is a singular answer for that. Right. And I think I'm you know, the book is really an exploration of all of these different narratives and how we have. Of internalize them, and they have kind of held us back in a lot of our existing workplaces. Um, I do think we're seeing starting to see some like, really profound examples of companies that are trying to do a lot around wellness, around work life balance, around gender pay gap, or, you know, even startups that are, you know, from their inception, really thinking about what does like a worker first structure look like. What does it mean to start a business that prioritizes and elevates the needs of my workers, creates an environment where they feel impactful and they feel that they are, you know, working to their capacity and but they don't feel stretched out or they're not feeling burned out. And but I would say the majority of workplaces aren't actually doing that. Right, like the majority of workplaces right now. I think, if anything, are scrambling because they they're struggling with a generation that's fed up. They're not willing to work above and beyond, which is something that, like, we probably shouldn't have had to do and probably set a bad precedent by doing right, but also felt like the right thing to do. And, you know, and so I do think that we are at this a bit of a precipice where it's not necessarily even that it's the right thing to do.

Samhita Mukhopadhyay: [00:08:32] Obviously, treating your workers right is the right thing to do, but it's also becoming a necessity because we are dealing with a generation of people and I think in general, like, I mean, there's very few people you talk to right now that are excited about going to work like it's not it's not many people and I don't and I do think the idea that like, oh, work will make you happy. Like I think those we know now that that's that idea that, you know, do something you love and you'll never work a day in your life is kind of bullshit, right? Like, we know that's not necessarily true. Work is work. And, you know, anything within the context of like having to do a service for paid work, there's always going to be challenges to that. Um, what I think is the opportunity here is what can we do in our regular workplaces to create an environment that's a little bit more manageable, that's a little bit more tenable, that people aren't quite as frustrated as they are. And to me, that's like a small step, right, that we can take right now to the bigger goal, which is like creating environments that are truly worker centric and worker driven. And, you know, and also like rooted in our ambition and our passions and, you know, and all of the things that we bring to the table. But rather than feeling so beaten down by all of it, actually feeling inspired.

Jonathan Fields: [00:09:37] Yeah. I mean, it's so interesting, right? Because what you're describing is really, you know, it's a larger ecosystem issue. You know, it's individual, it's organizational. And then it's also like larger cultural and type of thing. And it's really hard to solve for all of that simultaneously. And like the question so often is, you know, do we go from the outside in or do we go from the inside out, like, is this a grassroots thing? Is it, uh, you know, is it a larger scale where leadership buys in and then changes the culture of an organization type of thing? Or is it a yes? And like eventually it all has to happen. But I'm always so fascinated. Like, what's the most effective incendiary device for effecting change on a level like this? And I'm curious what your take is.

Samhita Mukhopadhyay: [00:10:17] Yeah. Well, I think it's a combination, right. I think that there are obviously like, you know, a lot of us are in workplaces where there's the opportunity to agitate for change, right? You have the opportunity to, you know, whether it's a union, whether it's some type of employee recognition, some, you know, some type of workplace agitation. A lot of us do not work in those environments. Right? So even while you're seeing that union membership is going up, the number of eligible union jobs has actually gone down. It's shrunk. Right. Because we are looking at a gig economy, we're looking at freelancing, we're looking at entrepreneurship. And a lot of these concepts don't apply to that. And I do think that's where there's been a bit of a divide, because I think a lot of entrepreneurs and a lot of independent contractors, like they also want to be treated fairly. Right? Like they don't want. Right. But there isn't. It's like, well, if you have a three person business, you're not going to unionize, right? So it's you know, I think it is also like a bit of a mindset shift of like what is necessary to create an environment where people are feeling seen and heard and productive and creative and all of those things that we think that I think are really exceptional and exciting about entrepreneurship. And a lot of, you know, especially what I write about in the book, is these like women led businesses that have all kind of come under scrutiny because they weren't perfect or they didn't do certain things, or some of them had like fairly egregious problems within the company.

Samhita Mukhopadhyay: [00:11:35] But what they were working on was quite exciting, right? It was an exciting moment. And how do you kind of retain that excitement and that creativity without the then also underclass of exploited labor or, you know, young workers that are then not treated fairly? And so, yeah, I do think the kind of both the idea of like agitating for, you know, broader change when we can and linking in with some type of worker solidarity. But also to me this is really about like a mindset shift. It's like really about spiritually also just recognizing like, what does it mean to be successful? What does it mean to have enough? What does it mean to feel satisfied in your work? And I do think that a lot of people have a lot of grievances right now, like I hear a lot of complaints, but there isn't a lot. If you sit someone down and you're like, what is the thing that makes you happy here? Like people aren't taking the time to figure that out. And I feel like that to me is is a bit of an internal shift. And ultimately, like change comes from many of us having that internal shift, right? It's like a lot of us saying together, this is not tenable. This is not how we want to work anymore. Here is how we're going to commit to creating better workplaces. Yeah. Little optimistic. But you know.

Jonathan Fields: [00:12:41] Yeah, I mean, it's always got to start with a bit of optimism or else like nothing goes anywhere. I mean, it's so interesting to what you describe makes so much sense to me. Like it's we tend to lock into. I'm curious whether you agree with this. Like in my experience, we tend to lock into what we don't want pretty quickly because it's it is a constant adjutant in our system. We're like, no, no, no, like like it's causing me pain right now. I don't want this. But like you said, if you pose a question, what do you want and what do you believe? Like what beliefs do we need to buy into in order to create that new thing that's a much more complex and nuanced thing. And I wonder sometimes we're so much less clear about that, because we know when we feel the pain of something that is not what we want in the moment, we can point to it, but we really haven't very often done the work of saying, but like, what are the qualities that really do matter to me? Like, what is the nature of of an experience or a relationship or a project or a mission or, you know, culture that really invigorates me, you know, that makes me come alive. And that's so it's a newer exploration for so many people. So there's just a lot less clarity. I'm curious what your take is on that.

Samhita Mukhopadhyay: [00:13:48] I do think that a lot of these things ebb and flow. Right. I do think that a we are in a moment of like complaining, right? Like like I do like social media enhances this. Like it's really like we are not in a place of nuance right now in general, like on any issue. Right. And it is very hard to scale nuance in like a really, you know, in a, in a big way. And so, you know, it's really easy to kind of link into the like, I'm sick of work. So like the Great Resignation, which I always say is like, not about actually quitting your job, but resigning yourself to it. Right? Like it's like, you know, I don't really want to work anymore or this kind of workplace ambivalence or like, I'm going to do the least I can do to get away with get away. And ultimately, you know, research shows that that's not actually what leads to happiness. Like, if you go to work every day and you can't find something that makes you feel impactful or meaningful or empowered in your day to day like you are not, and that is everything from like working at a grocery store to like, working at, you know, the highest levels at Microsoft. Like if you are actually not finding something and feeling effective at it, like you will not find happiness in your life. Um, and so I do think we're in a moment right now where it's really easy to criticize because there's a lot of tools. The algorithm almost like incentivizes us to, like, trash our employer or to, you know, and a lot of times it's warranted, you know, but sometimes it's not.

Samhita Mukhopadhyay: [00:15:07] Sometimes you're just complaining in public and and that's fine. But there's a limit to that. And I think at a certain point you also have to start dreaming and believing and wanting something better, which I do think, you know, and I write a little bit about this at the end of the book is some of the young people that have, like, taken their Yale degrees and gone to organized Starbucks. Right. Like, you are having these moments where I do think people are kind of saying like, you know, I'm not actually finding meaning from doing this or that or literally there's no jobs for me. And this is how I'm going to affect change in my own life. Or, you know, I mean, I think young people are very politically active right now. And I do think that that's going to start. That to me is a type of there is a optimism in that. There is because they are saying, like, we are not going to put up with this, we want something better. And I do think that with that will come this vision. But I also think it's people that are, you know, at my level, I think like managers, you know, the leaders of companies, like people that have profile, that need to actually start having these conversations because they really can't just be as much as it's important for it to be bottom up, any type of organizing work has to be.

Samhita Mukhopadhyay: [00:16:08] I do think it's important for like, the kind of what I call or what Barbara Ehrenreich coined, the kind of professional managerial class to really say, like, you know, we are also standing with workers. We are also committed because many of us are not incentivized to be in cahoots with leadership like that. Right? Like it's like it's like you're not making that much more money. Right? So, you know, I do think that that's that band of people, which is a little bit what this book is about, because that's my own experience. But also, I do think that's the group that's coming into consciousness because they are the ones that are supposed to be the dream of like the American contract. Right? It's like, oh, like you work to a certain place, you get a middle level management job, you have that 401 K, you know, you're supposed to be having made it, and everybody else is supposed to be working towards where you're at. And a lot of people at that level are like, no, I'm actually not going to do this anymore. Like I'm not going to push my team beyond what they have capacity for. I'm not going to like these guys are unhappy. I don't want to manage it. I don't want to do it anymore. And so I think that's what's happening right now is this kind of consciousness, like, you know, people at that level are coming into consciousness. The ones that we've been told that, oh, just be quiet. You're lucky you got the promotion. You got the job, right?

Jonathan Fields: [00:17:14] Yeah. Now, as a Gen Xer, you know, like, disaffected and invisible, like, just like the message was always like, put your head down and do the work like, this is, this is how it works, and go live somewhere else and or maybe like afterwards. And yeah, like the Zoomers are like, nope. Not happening. Yeah. No, I think the the experience of the pandemic rattled so many people who are actually like a generation or two above who really kind of had bought into, like those earlier myths and were just kind of like, you know, in some level of cruise control. And it kind of made them say, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a second. We don't know, like we're made no promises like tomorrow, I hope, but I don't know. And I feel like that has rattled so many people into re-examining this notion of what is the role of work in my life, what am I willing to actually contribute to it, and what do I want from it? And and maybe the bargain that I made over the last 20 years isn't the bargain that I want to keep for the next 20. And it's like what you're describing, like, as that affects more folks who are in senior management or leadership.

Jonathan Fields: [00:18:15] And like you get the two opposing forces coming like from those different angles. I am really optimistic. I am hopeful, but at the same time, I know, you know, the bigger the ship, the harder it is to, to, to change direction. So we're seeing a I think there was a really early openness to it in the last couple of years. And now my experiences in the last year or so, you've seen the pendulum swing back a little bit more to Searly conservative, and let's get back to where we used to be. It's like, uh, that never was all that good for most people, actually. But it's such an interesting dynamic. You know, you describe the notion of a lot of this pressure coming from someone like the younger generation up. It's almost like it's trickling up from one generation into the older ones. You also speak the phenomenon in the book, this notion that you describe as trickle down feminism, and how that idea hasn't panned out the way that a lot of people sort of like were stepping into it. Take me into that conversation.

Samhita Mukhopadhyay: [00:19:11] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So in the book, I talk about this concept of what I call trickle down feminism, you know, which is kind of the traditional model of workplace feminism, which is the type of lean in where it's like, you know, you work your way to the top and, you know, and as I talk about in the book, like, it's not inherently wrong, right? Like it recognizes that the system, the cards are stacked against women. What are the different things you can do to maneuver existing workplaces? And Lean In was effective for certain women, right. Like there were certain women that were in, you know, upper level management positions. They were in positions of power, but they were still being treated unequally, and that was beneficial to them to have that advice and to kind of figure out how to manage. But where are those examples of 1 or 2 women making it into the upper echelons of, like, whatever industry it may be? How did that actually impact women writ large? Now, there is some evidence that it does, like, you know, women are more likely to hire women, right? Or just in general, people are more likely to hire people that look like them. So, you know, affluent people hire more affluent people and, you know, those kinds of things. But in terms of creating systemic change, creating, creating workplaces that truly incorporate the needs and, um, wants of women and their families. Um, that change has been much slower to come. And part of it is because we have internalized this idea that as individuals, we should just be able to shoulder a lot of the hardships we experience in the workplace, and we should just put our head down and work our way through.

Samhita Mukhopadhyay: [00:20:34] And absolutely, that Gen X motto, I was also raised in it, you know, just like invisible. Keep your head down. Don't make too much noise if you're a squeaky wheel as a woman, like everyone's going to call you a bitch. They're going to say this, they're going to say that. So it was a bit of a politics of a necessity. But I do think that's cracking open now as women are looking at a, you know, like it's basically impossible to have a child now, um, you know, if you're trying to be a career woman, if you do, it comes at great personal sacrifice. Um, you are expected to take cuts in your career because of it. You're not seen as as ambitious. And that is a fundamental part of like being part of a society is having a family. Right? And that is something that's become completely incongruous with having a career. And so I do think in all of those different ways, while it's been great that we've seen the, like Kamala Harris's and Michelle Obama's of the world, like that's on Oprah, like that's three people like, right. Like that's not all women. And so what is it actually going to be for women and like, um, to, to, to raise as a class like for the pay gap to actually close and it's not going to be, you know, a few of us leaning in in the boardroom, even though I think that's necessary. I think it is important that we look at parity at every level of of the workplace. But what is the what is the actual strategy that's going to support women of all classes, all backgrounds and all different levels to actually be empowered in their workplace?

Jonathan Fields: [00:21:52] So maybe we can actually name what the strategy is right now. But when you when you look at that and you say, well, what qualities, what core ideas or ideals need to be a part of that strategy, where do you go?

Samhita Mukhopadhyay: [00:22:05] You know, this is where I think we do toggle to the collective, right? It is our collective responsibility. It is our you know, and I thought about this a lot when I was writing the book because it does feel like an undue pressure that's put on women. Right? So it's like, oh, the few successes that women have had. Now we have to apologize for those. We shouldn't have those anymore. We shouldn't be in the boardroom. We shouldn't be the CEO. Like now. Now ambition is a bad thing. And it's like, well, no, it's a combination of those things, right? It's that the majority of women aren't actually that. If not the layer that they're navigating. The majority of women are navigating what they call pink collar jobs or, you know, more working class jobs where they don't have a lot of space to agitate for change. And so I do think when it comes to like actually improving the lives of workers, like collective resistance is kind of the only path forward. I just the, the reason I talk so much about all of the other ways we can do it is because I don't think the I there's a lot of us that are not working in places where that's possible or the risk is too high or and there has to be some kind of in between. It can't just be like unionize or like, screw your life. And it sucks, you know, like you just work. You work with your head down and you get what you get paid and move on from that. And so I do think it is both of them. But I do think, you know, at a place like Facebook and a place like Google, at places where you see across the board that women are statistically paid less than their male counterparts. That, to me is an opportunity for collective resistance. Yeah.

Jonathan Fields: [00:23:27] No, that makes a lot of sense to me. And you bring up the concept of agency and power also, you know, like which is so central to the conversation. It's like, yes, we can talk about all these ideas. We can talk about. Here's what even if you are clear on like here's what I want. Like, here are the things that need to be in place to make this actually like a better experience for me. You know, as you describe like, like a huge part of the issue here is that, okay, so even if you know what you don't want and what you do want and what you believe, you know, if you're in a in a position where you know you're a single mom, you're working two jobs to put food on the table for your family. And like you, maybe you think if you brought to your supervisor, like, maybe there's something to be done, but like, you're so concerned about, you need that paycheck so much, you don't even want to have the conversation because you don't want to risk not having that money coming in right now because you need it. And so there's this just such a power disparity and a lack of agency and control, I think, in so many workplaces that even if we are clear on on what we want to happen, people don't feel like they actually have the ability to advocate for it themselves.

Samhita Mukhopadhyay: [00:24:32] No. Absolutely not. I mean, even me personally, I mean, I was in a senior management role at a company where the like, you know, rung below me was organizing and agitating for change. And I was so anxious to be anywhere near that conversation. Right. Like I did not know what the professional I mean, there are laws that disallow me from participating in that type of organizing just because I was a manager. But like, even like when it would come up, I was just like, oh my God, I don't want to deal with this at all. I don't, you know, it's really scary. And I do think, you know, we're talking about people's livelihoods, like, and this is like, as much as I appreciate all the theoretical discussions of how we should be in the workplace, it's like when it's literally asking people to do something with a gun to their head. It's like you, if you lose this job, you cannot feed your family, you cannot pay your rent, you cannot pay your student loans. Like the list of things that happens when you lose work. And and I do think that's like a piece of this conversation that like, I appreciate you bringing that up, because I do think feeling empowered in these roles, like, that's a piece of work on its own. And that's what I mean about the internal shift, is like what is actually possible given what's in front of me, you know, because it's not going to be for everybody to go on Twitter and have some kind of tirade or to, you know, be really outspoken or to feel confident or, you know, like, know that you have someone who could pay your rent, like a lot of people don't, right? So they're not going to be the first people raising their hands for to agitate in the workplace. And I do think that we really need to think about how do you meet people where they are in terms of like what is actually possible in the life and the job and the livelihood they have?

Jonathan Fields: [00:26:05] Yeah, I think it's so important. It's a lot of the work that we do in our large organization. Spark endeavors is really it's really modifications around the concept of job crafting, which is like if, if, if I'm not going to pick up and leave, if I'm not going to risk picking up and leaving, and maybe I even think, you know, there's not going to be a whole lot of cultural change where I am right now. Or there's still like little things, subtle shifts that I can create in the context of my day to day experience that will in some way like add up to to enough of a change where I just feel like I can breathe more easily, like there's more of a sense of meaning or purpose to what I'm doing in some way, shape or form. And sometimes I think in those situations we're talking about, you know, like that's actually where it starts on a much subtler, more individual level. It's like what is possible, you know, like and really looking on almost like a micro level and saying, can I make these five subtler, gentle tweaks or changes to the way I'm doing or tell a different purpose story around why I'm showing up and doing this thing that in some way just changes the psychology of the experience to make it more okay for the moment in time. Not saying this is a long term solution, but maybe it just helps. Sort of like right the ship for now while I try and figure out what is the longer term play here.

Samhita Mukhopadhyay: [00:27:12] Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's a slippery slope between that and complacency. Right. Yeah. 100%. You know I do think right now there is a bit of a complacency where people are they feel very victimized by work. They feel very like they feel angry and they feel unsatisfied. But as we said in the beginning, it's like if you ask that. What do they actually want? Like they don't necessarily have an answer and they don't. They just know that they're not happy in what they're doing. And I do think some of those internal shifts, whatever they may be, you know, could be an unlock for that. Yeah.

Jonathan Fields: [00:27:44] It's interesting. You it kind of segues into, um, there were two different chapters that you wrote about this. They're like where the concept of enoughness sort of like enters the conversation. One is sort of like having enough like, or, and also the idea of, like the constant pursuit of more like what, what is enough even and then also the concept of having too much and how those sometimes play in weird ways with each other.

Samhita Mukhopadhyay: [00:28:05] Yeah, yeah. And, you know, it's something I thought about a lot also when I realized that, like, I had always thought that I didn't make a choice not to have children, like, I always felt like it was like something that happened to me or the economist, I quote, you know, who called it, who coined it at the turn of the century? Now a creeping non-choice is what she called it, which is how I had always felt about it, until I actually, you know, wrote the book and really thought about it. And I was like, no, like I did make a choice. I looked at what the options were. I saw what my mom friends were sacrificing in their lives and in their careers and their in their relationships to successfully have children. And I was like, I don't think I can do that. I don't think I can make those sacrifices. And, you know, and other people have kind of made a different choice. Like, can we really call that a choice? Or is that just like a reaction to a set of circumstances? And I don't think, like any group of people had more of a personal reckoning than mothers after the pandemic in terms of just both kind of realizing, like, I don't actually want to be working all the time.

Samhita Mukhopadhyay: [00:29:04] I want to spend time with my kids. And that doesn't make me a bad feminist, like the number of women that have said that to me, that have been like, yeah, actually the pandemic I had, I quit my job, my husband kept his I spent more time with my kids. I actually liked it. Like, I don't know what that means for my ambition. Um, to the women that were like, oh my God, I cannot function without my babysitter. What is going on? Get me back to work like I can't do, you know? And I think that that much more realistic conversation of, like, this is actually what I want. You know, this is like, this is my relationship to mothering. This is how it connects to ambition and the workplace. What I think is like. And that's really where the idea of like having too much, where it's like you have it all, you have it all, and it's killing you.

Jonathan Fields: [00:29:45] Yeah. Um, which it's a really interesting reframe, zooming the lens out when you think about, you know, you just poured yourself into writing a book, which I've done as well. And it's a big commitment over a long window of time. Now it's entering the world. Do you have any intention for this, or do you have sort of like a, like this is the this is the big thing that I really want people to take away from this.

Samhita Mukhopadhyay: [00:30:08] Yeah, I would say that's a great question. And I would say that the, the, the hope that I have more than anything is that people feel a little bit less alone. Um, I think that one of the things we really struggle with right now in general, but also in the work, in our work, is alienation and feeling really disconnected from like we're siloed, like a lot of us are even working from home at this point, and we're still working from home. And so our only interaction is through zoom. And like, you know, I think people were struggling with a mentorship gap. Like, I don't think young people are getting the mentorship they need right now. And my hope really is that people read this and they see themselves in it, that they see and know that, like they alone do not have to solve for every inequality in our society and for everything that's going wrong in the workplace and that they see a little bit or what I call, you know, the margin of maneuverability, a little opportunity to kind of make some decisions, whether they be small or big, from a place where they're really looking at what they actually want and what impact they want to make in the world.

Jonathan Fields: [00:31:11] Mhm. Yeah, that sounds powerful. Thank you. Hey, so I hope you enjoyed that conversation. Learned a little something about your own quest to come alive and work in life. And maybe feel a little bit less alone along this journey to find and do what sparks you. And remember, if you're at a moment of exploration, looking to find and do or even create work that makes you come more fully alive, that brings more meaning and purpose and joy into your life, take the time to discover your own personal Sparketype for free at sparketype.com. It'll open your eyes to a deeper understanding of yourself and open the door to possibility like never before. And hey, if you're finding value in these conversations, please just take an extra second right now to follow and rate SPARKED in your favorite podcast app. This is so helpful in helping others find the show and growing our community so that we can all come alive in work in life together. This episode of SPARKED was produced by executive producers Lindsey Fox and Me, Jonathan Fields. Production and editing by Sarah Harney. Special thanks to Shelley Adelle for her research on this episode. Until next time. I'm Jonathan Fields and this is SPARKED.