The Truth About Building Wealth

Jonathan Fields: [00:00:10] Money. Some view it as a bit of a dirty word. Others live their entire lives in pursuit of that. There is so much mythology and misinformation about what it really takes to build life changing levels of wealth. Even if we find a way to be well informed and are fortunate to be in a position to be thinking about building wealth, so many are still left to deal with the often triggering family and cultural patterns, the assumptions and values that we have adopted, often unconsciously and then been pummeled by around money. What if you could reshape your entire relationship with money? I'm willing to bet that at some point you felt confused, or overwhelmed, or just plain frustrated. When it comes to personal finance, it's not easy to navigate, especially when so many supposed experts seem to be speaking completely different languages. But what if you had a guide, a mentor who could decode it all for you in simple, practical steps? Someone to really help you adopt a realistic yet quote affluence friendly mindset and stop just getting by paycheck to paycheck. My guest today, Vivian two, is on a mission to do just that. She's a former Wall Street trader turned personal finance phenom, educator, and now author of the new book Rich AF The Winning Money Mindset That Will Change Your Life. So after burning out in the toxic environment of high finance, which we dive into, Vivian found a new purpose that really took her by surprise, making financial literacy accessible after she realized there was just this huge unmet need for judgment free, real world, authentic and actionable financial advice, especially for people who've traditionally been excluded from a level of financial Intel that can be life changing.

Jonathan Fields: [00:01:51] So she started creating these viral TikTok videos, just packed with straightforward money advice. And now, with millions of loyal followers, she has become a leading voice in empowering everyday folks to get smart about money and achieve financial freedom. In our conversation, we dive into the assumptions, the misinformation, the missteps that so often become the dominant tropes in personal finance. And then Vivian shares specific insights, strategies, and tips designed to help equip you with tools and knowledge to better understand finances and money and build your own generation. Changing Wealth strategy. No matter where you are in your life cycle, we explore ways to maximize earnings, how to negotiate your true worth at work and yes, things like that are a part of personal finance. Things like overcoming investing fears, adopting simple, effective habits to grow wealth, and then tap this resource not just for your own security and well-being, but also to help make the world a better place to be. So excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields and this is SPARKED. As a kid. What were the conversations around money?

Vivian Tu: [00:03:08] Oh my gosh, my parents are very frugal. Let me put that out there. They have been frugal for as long as I can remember. They're still frugal today, and their financial situation looks very different now than it did when I was younger. Growing up on evenings, my mom would take safety scissors and I would get the pair of safety scissors, and she'd get the regular pair of scissors, and we would sit while we were watching TV or like hanging out for the evening after dinner. And we would clip coupons. And she was like, Vivian, you see, like anything with this, like dotted black line with the scissors around it, like you're cutting that. And then she would review the coupons I had cut and put them in her little coupon holder, and there was a huge emphasis placed on saving, budgeting. Um, there's a Chinese phrase in Shanghainese. That's where my family's from, Shanghai. It's essentially translates to money has to be used on the knife's edge. And it really meant if you can avoid spending your money, do so. So money was really only used for necessary purchases. I think it developed a pretty like big scarcity mindset in my head that I never knew where the next dollar was coming from. I had to squirrel away all of my savings for later in case of a rainy day, so I've always been really good at that. But there were certainly no conversations around investing or growing my money, or demanding my worth and asking for more. Like my parents were there to survive. They were not there to make waves or ask for more. They were happy to just get what they could get.

Jonathan Fields: [00:04:40] So when you come out of college then and you end up in, um, JP Morgan Chase as an equity trader, what's going through your mind when you say like, this is the path I want to step into?

Vivian Tu: [00:04:50] Like, mama, I made it like, right. Not just that, like I had made it, but like, this is the American dream, right? Like daughter of two immigrant parents. I went to public school. I did not have a college counselor helping me write those essays. I go to the University of Chicago. I get this fancy degree. I get the fancy job. Like I made it. I felt like I had won, like Charlie and the Chocolate Factory Golden Ticket style had found my one way into being a rich person. I really, genuinely that's what I thought.

Jonathan Fields: [00:05:23] So two and a half years into that fantasy of being a rich person.

Vivian Tu: [00:05:29] Fantasy is a great way to put it, right, right.

Jonathan Fields: [00:05:31] Everything kind of implodes because like, the money is there.

Vivian Tu: [00:05:34] Oh, frankly, it wasn't right.

Jonathan Fields: [00:05:36] Because that early in that career it probably like you're not quite like at that place yet, but um, two and a half years in, like, you had this dream job, you have the thing where you're like, like you just described. Mom, I made it, right? Yeah, but something is going so wrong that you decide you have to exit this.

Vivian Tu: [00:05:50] Yeah. So full transparency. I think my very first year, my salary was $80,000. I got a $10,000 signing bonus to move from Chicago to New York. And that was more money than I had ever seen in my life. I thought I was a trillionaire, I thought I was Jeff Bezos, but in reality, I was working a 14 to 16 hour day every single day. And it was actually okay. For the first year and a half, I didn't mind that I was working crazy hours. I felt like I was being paid, so I was like, fine with it. But it all changed when the head of my desk got let go. And when there's a shakeup like that on Wall Street, the expectation is that the team that the old boss brought in, they probably weren't super safe in their seats. So basically half of the team gets let go, new boss comes in, brings in a bunch of his cronies. And initially, when I had shown up to my desk to my job, there were 30 to 40 white men and my manager. My manager was another Asian woman. I for the first time saw someone who looked like me succeed in this industry, and it was so reassuring that I could do it because she had done it and we looked the same. But when I was taken away from her to go work for another guy, it started to spiral out of control.

Vivian Tu: [00:07:11] When this man started to make comments about my appearance. Things like you're too girly to be here. Didn't like how my fingernails click clacked on the keyboard. Didn't like that I liked pink. Didn't like that I was just not one of the boys. And unfortunately for me, that wasn't going to change for me any time soon. So I'm like, what am I supposed to do about these characteristics, about myself that he hates when this is the guy who determines how much money I make at the end of the year? And one day I came into work with a long cardigan on and he looks me in the eye. He touches his hands together and he bows and he says, is that a kimono? All I could think was how much I wanted to, like, strangle him. Did not do so, obviously. But it's one of those moments when a lump forms in your throat and your face gets hot and there's not much you can say, but I decided. At that very moment, I was like, I'm out of here. You know, everyone was basically being like, it's just a person thing. You still need to work in finance. Like you should go find a different job, just, you know, but still do the same thing because you work so hard and you already put so much time and like, effort. And my parents were saying, like, we helped you get through a college degree that was a quarter of $1 million.

Vivian Tu: [00:08:28] Like, you're not about to like, just piss this away. And I will say out of a place of probably like naivety, like I was still recruiting for other finance jobs. Mostly, I would say at hedge funds, a couple other sell side opportunities. But I really was going to take the first offer. I got to get out of there. And coincidentally, for me, it ended up being in a media company. I went to BuzzFeed, but I think I'm really lucky with how it ended up playing out. But I certainly did feel sad to be leaving the industry after putting in that much work, especially because everyone in my life was telling me the exact same thing that you were asking me of. Why let it all go to waste after working so hard after going to UChicago? It's known to be a Wall Street feeder school after, you know, getting the good grades, after going through like a dozen of interviews to literally land that one seat, like, how do you give it all up? And it's like at a certain point, you have to recognize what is in your best interest because everyone around you has an opinion, but they're not the one sitting at that desk for 14 to 16 hours a day wanting to pull their hair out. It's you.

Jonathan Fields: [00:09:39] Yeah. I mean, it's the classic sunk cost fallacy, right? It's like I put so much into this. So many years, so much money. So many people have sacrificed on behalf of, like, making, getting me to this place. How could I possibly walk away from it? No matter how miserable I am and no matter how little hope I see of it changing. But yet I'm so invested in it, we feel like we're just we are locked into the investments that we've made in the past that brought us to this place, rather than looking at the future and saying, but look at the runway I have ahead of me. Yeah, our psychology is so weird around this. It is such a tough decision. It's awesome to sort of like, hear the inner thinking around those decisions, because I think people don't often share, sort of like, here's how I thought through it, and here's what I dealt with along the way. So you end up, as you described at BuzzFeed. Um, from what I understand, um, digital sales. And while you're there, you start to realize, wait a minute. All of my colleagues are, like, asking me all these money based questions.

Vivian Tu: [00:10:36] Yeah. You know, I was one desperate for friendship because I didn't know anybody. So I would sit with a random group of people every single day at lunch, ingratiate myself, be like, what are your names? What do you do? Like try to learn as much about people as I could, and they would ask like, oh, like, what company did you come from? And their assumption was that the answer would be something like, oh, like, uh, I came from vice or now this or other, you know, a competing media company. And when I would say, oh, I came from Wall Street like I was a trader, they'd be like, what? Like that doesn't make any sense. And I would explain my career trajectory. And then the immediate follow up question would be, can you help me rebalance my 401 K? Or should we be buying our company stock options? Or which health insurance plan did you pick? Can I just see what selection you made for open enrollment? I'm just going to copy yours. And it was so funny to me because this would be the same three questions that I would get from people who were younger than me, fresh out of college, but also people who were well into their 30s and 40s and very senior, making way more money than I was. And I'm like, wait, you probably make like two, three, four times as much money as I do. How do you not know this? And it made me realize that nobody really gets the financial education that they deserve and or need.

Vivian Tu: [00:11:56] And the only reason that I had gotten it wasn't even because I'd worked on Wall Street. It was because my very first manager, my very first mentor, the Asian woman I mentioned, her name is Jean. She took me aside and she took me under her wing and basically asked me all of these questions like, are you contributing to your 401 K? Are you using the company benefits to pay for your health care? Are you doing this? Are you doing that? And obviously I wasn't, but she walked me through it and I almost joke that instead of a rich dad, poor dad situation, I was like, I had a rich mom, poor mom situation in that. Like, my parents were able to really teach me about that saving and budgeting piece. But Jeannie was the first person to show me how to grow my money, how to hit conventional wealth in a way that, you know, we envision showed me how to invest, showed me how to do all those things. And now I was able to then pass that on to my co-workers. And what I ended up doing is putting it on the internet, because I was getting the same question so many times. I didn't want to repeat myself, but little did I know, more than just my coworkers needed that information.

Jonathan Fields: [00:13:02] Yeah, I mean, so you start posting. It sounds like pretty quickly a lot of people start paying attention because we have this conversation. You've built a global community where you're in there serving every single day and answering a lot of questions. One of the things you also talk about is really just riffing on what you were talking about is this notion of knowing your worth, you know, understanding that there's a value that I bring to the table. And it's interesting, right? Because in the last 3 to 4 years, there's been this huge shift in power dynamics in the workforce and during the pandemic, and sort of like the emergence the last 2022 ish, a lot of power still remained in the workforce. And because there was a shortage and now I feel like the pendulum has started to swing back, you know, and now people are in this really funky moment where they're like, ooh, you know, like there's there was a year and a half to two years where people were tripping over themselves to find people like me. And I could basically say, this is what I want. And people would say, yes, please start tomorrow. And now a lot of people are feeling the pendulum is swinging back where the power is shifting again. So we're in this really funky moment. So when you talk about, you know, the importance of knowing your worth and then asking for it and negotiating it, how do you think about this moment?

Vivian Tu: [00:14:19] I think these macro trends are always going to be occurring. Either it's going to be mid great resignation, where everyone can basically say, I want $1 trillion and their boss will say, fine. Or to your point, as the pendulum swings the other way right now, where it feels like almost like, you know, the great layoffs, people feel very, very worried about job security at the end of the day, what I like to remind everyone is that the top performer never gets fired. Never. If you are performing at that high level, if you are out selling, out performing, the people you sit around, the people who are in your team, you will always be safe. And it's really important to acknowledge that even during times of instability, at a broader level, if you are a strong performer, you can still ask for more money because you still have value and you still have worth, and you are providing something that that company needs. And I think it's okay to ask, because even if you get told no. Oh, you're no worse off than you were 20s beforehand. And so I think regardless of the year, regardless of the environment, you can still ask and I recommend people ask for 10 to 15% raises every single year, as long as they are performing to that level.

Vivian Tu: [00:15:40] Am I saying you're going to get that every single year? Not necessarily. But if you don't get a raise, the same percent that inflation is currently at, you know, at one point it was at like eight 9%. I think right now it's come in a little bit closer to like 5%. If you're not getting a raise equivalent to that of inflation, you're actually going to make less next year than you did this year. And so not only is it critically important to make sure your pay keeps up with inflation, but also seeing how much your corporation values you through pay is a very healthy marker to understand where you sit. And if you have been told year after year, your performance is not where it needs to be to get that raise that tells you something. Or if they consistently say, hey, you're our top performer, but we don't have budget, that also tells you something. Maybe it's time to go somewhere where they will have budget to pay a top performer like you.

Jonathan Fields: [00:16:29] I'd love to get granular for a moment. If you're open to this. Let's say somebody is listening to this and they're like, let's do it. Yeah, okay. That makes sense to me. And I actually have been a top performer, you know, like there's been a lot of change, a lot of shifting. But I'm the one who keeps staying here and I feel like I'm doing really good work. But also I see the macro trend here. I see the impact on my company or my team or my division, whatever it is. And I know things are tight, but I still need what I need. Yeah, what would be some basic language that somebody might be able to actually step into to sort of like open this conversation?

Vivian Tu: [00:17:01] Yeah. First and foremost, I highly recommend everybody create a brag book promo pitch raise receipts folder in their email. Essentially, any time you get an email that pats you on the back saying, hey, we could not have gotten this project done without Jonathan. Like, Vivian is the best designer on this entire team. Like whatever. Forward those emails. That way you essentially have a Rolodex of all of the times you knocked it out of the park, and it's very easy to quantify your successes. I would then set time with your manager 6 to 8 months before your end of year review or mid-year review. That's when you start asking for money, because what everyone likes to do is they wait until November or December and they are too afraid to ask throughout the year. So they, like, bottle it up, bottle it up, and then it starts to bubble to the surface, bubble to the surface, bubble to the surface. And you get to December and you're like, if I don't get a raise next year, I'm gonna quit. And your boss is like, where is this coming from? Like, we've never talked about this. It feels so out of left field. Whereas if you start six months in advance, eight months in advance, and don't be annoying, but be persistent, remind them every two months that, hey, these are the goals that I'm setting. Here's how I'm tracking to reach them. Additionally, I would like or you know, a raise of XYZ would be commensurate to the type of work and the level that I'm operating at.

Vivian Tu: [00:18:27] Remind them that pay is important to you because they need to know. They need to know that you are always going to be keeping your eye on that dollar sign. And that way when October comes and HR pulls your manager into a back room and is like, this is your budget, you have to now divvy this budget across your entire team. You understand that your boss is going to have you top of mind because you've been asking for the past, you know, 6 to 8 months. You've probably touched base with them 2 or 3 times. They know you care about money. You're going to be top of their mind, whereas everyone else is going to be an afterthought because they haven't asked. Essentially, you have to tell people you're going to do good work, do the good work, and then take a megaphone and remind everyone of the amazing work you did so that you can be first in line to get that money, because you don't get paid by putting your head down and being the smartest person in the room. There has been statistic research that the person with the highest IQ is not the one paid the most, it is the person who makes the hardest effort to be known socially. And people think they do more than they actually do.

Jonathan Fields: [00:19:27] That last part, um, being known socially is really interesting, especially right now when the shape of work is changing in dramatic ways, where some people in the office, some people are at home, some people are some blend, and that's really changing very quickly, too. And one of the big concerns has been, well, if I'm not sort of like physically present in front of the people with whom I have to not necessarily curry favor, but just become known on a regular basis for who I am and what I contribute, that it's going to make it that much harder. And what you're describing is sort of like, well, even if you're working entirely remotely, if you're building your brag file, if you are having the meetings or the conversations where you're in control of the mechanisms to regularly show people how you show up and what you contribute, then it kind of helps offset the fact that you might not be physically present in the office. Does that make sense?

Vivian Tu: [00:20:23] Yeah. Um, you know, there's in my mind a concept of, like, no face time, no pay. And I think that's true. It's really easy to have those little fun, water cooler moments when you're in person. Right? It's as simple as asking somebody on your team to go grab a coffee in the afternoon. If you are working fully remote or even hybrid, you don't get as many swings at bat, is what I call it, to have those face time moments. So if you know that for a fact, you need to be going out of your way to strategically schedule time not just with your boss, but with people who could potentially do you favors. So when I got to BuzzFeed, I did not know anything about media, couldn't tell you what an impression was, had no idea how to sell something. I just didn't know anything. I noticed that there was a social hierarchy, and if you were a part of this upper inner circle of salespeople who closed, who were just known for closing monster deals, always, you know, being at the top of their game, people would bend over backwards for them. And what I did was every day I would spend 15 minutes getting to know someone new on a team that I had to work with tangentially. Not my team, someone tangentially. So I would go out of my way to meet the people in accounting, who were the ones who were making sure that our clients paid us.

Vivian Tu: [00:21:47] I would meet the people in legal who had to make sure that the contracts were signed. I would meet the people in the brand planning team that would help make really big decks and make them fancy. I would meet the people on the distribution team or the social team or whatever, and that way when I needed a favor, I had put in all this face time, which you can still do remotely. Just ask to set up a 15 minute coffee chat to get to know someone. It's a little harder, but it's not, you know, impossible. But because these people knew me, because they knew that I like to go to Pilates on Friday afternoon, they knew that I cared about the new goldendoodle dog. They got that I knew what their kid's name was when I needed a favor. When I needed something done in four minutes instead of four hours, I had a favor to call in, and that made me more effective at my job and putting in all that face time got me paid more. So I do think it's important to build those relationships. I think with the rise of hybrid and remote work, we've started to take that for granted, that we always like to do stuff for people we like, and you're more likely to do something for a friend than you are a stranger.

Jonathan Fields: [00:22:55] Yeah, I mean, that makes so much sense. So here's what's coming up in my mind as you're describing this, a third or so of the population identify as being introverted. And what you're describing is something where somebody listening to this, it sounds very much like the extroverted ideal gets the reward. What if that's not you? What if you're the person who you're like, you know, like you're actually pretty chill, like you prefer not to be very sort of like proactively and aggressively social. And it actually is really depleting for you. Do you feel like there's a disadvantage 100%.

Vivian Tu: [00:23:31] There is a disadvantage if you are not the conventional description of confident of a leader. And this isn't just necessarily like visually, because that has been the case for me. Like being a young Asian woman has been a disadvantage in that. Like people immediately assume that I'm going to be quiet and demure and going to take a back seat. But it's also your personality. People who are introverted, people who are neurodivergent, learn differently, need different ways to process information. It's harder for them. It's always going to be harder for certain people. And if you are not the conventional, confident, loud, willing to raise your hand, willing to go to the happy hour after work and schmooze with people because you happen to have kids or a family or other obligations, it is harder for you. And I don't think that we acknowledge that enough. I think there are certain things that you can do to still counteract that, whether it's instead of, you know, doing that big group happy hour, it's setting that 15 minutes aside one on one with people, or even asking for a more extroverted coworker or friend to introduce you to someone. There are ways you can work around it, but I'm not going to lie when I say it's harder if you are not a conventional learner, if you are not the conventional description of what a confident leading manager looks like, corporate work is harder for you.

Jonathan Fields: [00:24:54] Yeah, yeah, I love that. When you think about this sort of what to do with your money side of things, is there like one big myth or misnomer that really jumps out at you, that bothers you, that like you'd want to speak to? Or is it really just sort of like the accumulation of a lot of just little bits of misinformation that stop us from doing what we need to do?

Vivian Tu: [00:25:15] I would say it's more like death by a thousand paper cuts. It's all these little bits of information that people are just missing along the way. I think finance is very, very challenging because it's almost like speaking a new language. The jargon is so heavy. It's not abundantly clear what a 401 K is based on the name. If you don't already know what a 401 K is, it's not abundantly clear what the Roth in Roth IRA stands for, if you don't already know. And once you do understand the jargon, it's just really about setting healthy habits in place. But I do think one of the biggest myths is that only rich people can invest. Because how do you think those rich people got rich in the first place? They were investing. It's not something that you wait to do later, it's how you get there. I joke that investing is the only way a single person can be a two household income, because not only are you working hard for your money, your money is working hard for you. It's like having a great spouse who also brings in money and helps support the family of one, without having to actually go out and date and find that person, what have you. But it just allows you to make money while you sleep. Because we as humans can feasibly only work so many hours a day. We are made of flesh and bones. Our brains do give out after a certain point. You are not as good of a money making tool as your money. Your money is a better use, so the faster you can get to your money, making you more money versus your body or your brain making you more money, the better.

Jonathan Fields: [00:26:56] If you are going to say, if somebody comes to you and says, hey, listen, finally, I had a point in my life where I've got a little bit of money where I can start doing something with and I know you're probably going to take an issue with even somebody saying, I'm finally at a point because your whole thing is like, it doesn't matter even if it's a dollar or $10. Just start now. Yeah, exactly. Like somebody just says, okay, I just want to know, like, what are the three things? If I could only think about like, my life is so crazy, so busy. Like, I just want to know what are the three things that might be the biggest levers in what I might think about doing with money, even if it's small bits of money as it comes in, you know, like every other week in a paycheck. What would you say to them?

Vivian Tu: [00:27:33] Yeah, I would say first and foremost, start an emergency fund. It's really shitty that the number one reason for bankruptcy in this country is medical debt. That seems like that shouldn't be the case. You don't choose to get a kidney stone or cancer or get sick, but it's important to have an emergency fund in case the wheel falls off your car or your roof caves in. You don't want to go into mountains of debt just because you couldn't afford that. So I would say for single people, 3 to 6 months of living expenses is good. If you are a head of household, if you have a mortgage, just some more fixed costs. I would say 6 to 12 months is probably a better bet. So first have that emergency fund. Two not all debt is created equal. I would rank your debt from highest to lowest interest rate, and focus on paying off any debt with an interest rate that's higher than 7%. First, because that is high interest rate debt. Typically, anything above that is usually credit card debt, and that debt compounds faster than you will likely be able to earn in capital gains if you were to invest. So really, really, you want to pay off any high interest rate debt as soon as humanly possible. It just snowballs so fast that it's going to be hard to get under control unless you're making a concerted effort to pay it down. And then last but definitely not least, if you have your emergency fund, if you have paid off that high interest rate debt, invest early and often. So this is as simple as putting away a dollar to $5, $10 every month and set it up on an automatic direct deposit from your paycheck to your brokerage.

Vivian Tu: [00:29:12] And there are so many brokerages that allow you to essentially automatically allocate your dollars, and you're going to want to consider index funds, you're going to consider index funds that track the S&P 500. You might consider something that tracks the total stock market, something that travel tracks global indices or sectors that you're passionate about, whether that be tech or the pharma field or maybe not pharma, because I got burned by that. But, um, you know, just whatever sectors you're really passionate about, as well as if you're really saving and investing for a specific goal, a target date retirement fund might make sense, right? You want to save and invest for retirement. All you have to do is essentially calculate the year where you will turn 6065. Whatever and back into which target date fund makes the most sense for you. And it's essentially a catered way for you to always be investing in something that makes sense for your age. And that's again catered to the average person. If you are incredibly high net worth, maybe that doesn't make sense for you, but it's a great jump off point and it's so easy to do. And worst case, if you really feel like investing is still too complicated, just get a robo advisor to do it for you. You take a quiz about your money goals, what you know, how much money you make, what your goals are when you want to retire, how much money you're spending, what tax bracket you're in, whatever. And they will pick investments for you. You just need to start because time in the market beats timing the market or picking the perfect investment every single time.

Jonathan Fields: [00:30:40] Yeah, that makes so much sense. So zooming the lens out a little bit, we've been talking a lot about money, about wealth, about worth. In your mind, what is the real role of money or wealth in a life well lived?

Vivian Tu: [00:30:55] When I first started thinking about money and wanting to be rich, it was for very shallow reasons. I wanted to be able to buy that new designer purse, drive my lime green Lamborghini. I wanted to have the mansion on the hill. But as I've started getting to a position where I'm comfortable saying I'm rich, I live an incredibly good life, I am wealthy, I am doing great. Money has become more of the ability to have optionality in my life. Money is power. Money is agency. Money is being able to take an Uber at 11 p.m. at night without double checking how much money is in my bank account, instead of taking the subway, because I'm not sure if I can afford it. Money is being able to leave a bad boss. Money is being able to leave a bad relationship. Money is being able to leave a bad apartment. It gives you the power and agency to live the life you want to live without fear, because it gives you choices. And so I think it's so important to encourage people to want money, to want wealth and richness in their life, because it gets them out of bad situations and lets them choose exactly how they're going to live and what a happily ever after means to them.

Jonathan Fields: [00:32:10] Love that.

[00:32:11] Thank you. Of course.

Jonathan Fields: [00:32:17] Hey, so I hope you enjoyed that conversation. Learned a little something about your own quest to come alive and work in life, and maybe feel a little bit less alone along this journey to find and do what sparks you. And remember, if you're at a moment of exploration, looking to find and do or even create work that makes you come more fully alive, that brings more meaning and purpose and joy into your life, take the time to discover your own personal Sparketype for free at sparketype.com. It'll open your eyes to a deeper understanding of yourself and open the door to possibility like never before. And hey, if you're finding value in these conversations, please just take an extra second right now to follow and rate SPARKED in your favorite podcast app. This is so helpful in helping others find the show and growing our community so that we can all come alive and work in life together. Until next time. I'm Jonathan Fields and this is SPARKED. This episode of SPARKED was produced by executive producers Lindsey Fox and me, Jonathan Fields. Editing help by Alejandro Ramirez and production and editing by Sarah Harney. And special thanks to Shelley Adelle for her research on this episode.