When to Quit or Stick It Out

LinkedIn: [00:00:00] Linkedin presents.

Jonathan Fields: [00:00:13] So when is the time to walk away from work? How do you know when that creative spark has faded? Or have you ever felt torn between loyalty to a job, a cause or team, and honoring your own wellbeing and notion of how you want to live and build your future? How do we know when it's time to move on from a job, team, project or company? To quit with care and start anew with intention? In today's SPARKED Hot Take episode with SPARKED Braintrust member Jenny Blake, we're exploring the nuances of deciding when to move on. Jenny is a career and business strategist, podcaster, and award winning author of three books Life After College, The groundbreaking pivot for Navigating What's Next, and her recently published free Time for Optimizing What's Now. And in this conversation, we address those pivotal questions that arise when it feels like time for change. We explore a set of inquiries and prompts to think about when deciding if a job or creative endeavor or passion project has run its course. We look at the hidden costs that accumulate when you stay somewhere that drains you, and we examine a set of very specific tactics, prompts, and questions that we can tap to pause the churning when you're lost in indecision and get clarity. If you're wondering whether you should keep on keeping on or look for something entirely new. This conversation is for you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is SPARKED. Hey, before we dive into today's show, you know, we've learned that a lot of our listeners are sort of at this moment where they're really exploring the notion of work in their lives and their next moves in their careers.

Jonathan Fields: [00:01:57] And if you are in that place, we talk about the SPARKED and the Sparketypes a lot on this show, this body of work that we've developed to help you really identify what makes you come alive and how to apply that to the world of work. We've heard from a lot of folks that they would also love some help along that journey. If you're curious, you can also find on our website a directory of Certified Sparketype Advisors who know this body of work and can really help coach and guide you through it. So we'll drop a link to the show notes in that right now. And if it feels interesting to you and you just like somebody to help guide you through this next part of your career or work journey, take a look and see if somebody resonates. It might be the perfect fit to help you along this next leg of your journey. Again, that link is in the show notes now.

Jonathan Fields: [00:02:56] Jenny Blake. We are diving into a SPARKED hot take today on a particular topic that you and I have grappled with probably countless times over the years, individually, in our own businesses, sometimes in our own lives. And that I think people have come to us asking about many, many, many times over a period of years also. So I'm going to hand it over to you to tee this topic up and then we'll dive in.

Jenny Blake: [00:03:22] Well, it's always great to be here with you JF. Such a highlight. The juicy topic du jour is how to know when to quit. I have become kind of a de facto hotline for people who are contemplating leaving a fancy corporate job, specifically Google. I get a lot of Googlers calling me saying I'm thinking of quitting. Should I quit? When should I quit? Or I just quit? And that's just me, because they know that I went through that journey in 2011. But there's also quitting a creative project. Just the other day, I was at brunch with a friend and she said, when are you going to shut down the Pivot podcast? It's been around for eight years. I'm kind of juggling a lot of different things in my delightfully tiny media company, and I sat there grappling with the question, and she had some good frameworks for thinking that through. But I thought, you know, it's not always clear when to quit something that you're doing. And how do you gauge when it's time whether to do it for something as big as a job or as individual, as a creative project? And so I get this question a lot. Just like you said, it came up on a podcast as well just the other day. So I figured we could tease it apart, knowing that there's never any one right answer. It's just food for thought of what has helped the two of us consider these moments.

Jonathan Fields: [00:04:37] Yeah, I love this and I've I've dealt with this a lot in probably two major contexts. One is actually three major contexts. One is way back in ancient times when I actually had a job employed by other companies, which is a very, very, very long time ago now. But I worked for a massive federal government bureaucracy. I worked for a giant global law firm. Each one of these, you know, like in theory from the outside in these prestigious super fancy jobs with all the perks that everybody wants. And yet when I was on the inside and probably not too different from working with your former employer, these are the jobs that so many people often aspire to. And then you get there, and the experience is sometimes not what you thought it would be. Or you just over time, outgrow what it is and you feel like, okay, maybe time to make a different decision. So one context is working for another organization as an employee. The second context is my own companies. So like when I found and start and grow my own company, there has come a time and this has happened a number of times over where I've hit a point where I said, do I need to quit my own company? And that may look like me walking away, that may look like me exiting and selling the company, transitioning it in some way. Or it may literally look like me taking a much lesser role where it's not really occupying bandwidth. Um, the third part of it is what you're referencing is creative projects or endeavors that may or may not be professional, but just okay. So I'm making a deep commitment, a devotion to this thing and spending a lot of time and energy, sometimes resources, saying yes to it and then maybe get months or years down the road. You're like, huh? Like, why am I still doing this? So these three different contexts have come up with me over and over in the course of my life. Same with you or not so much.

Jenny Blake: [00:06:31] Oh, yeah. I mean, I'm curious, as you say, those three, what are the clues? How do you know? Or what did those moments have in common, especially, let's say, shutting down or stepping aside or out of your own companies? Because theoretically we think, oh, well, I started it. Therefore I can choose exactly how to create it and how to run it. So how do you know when you need to just make minor changes or even major changes, versus maybe it's time to walk away altogether? Curious what your clues are. Yeah.

Jonathan Fields: [00:07:01] So there are a couple of questions that I tend to ask in that context. I'm so curious to hear how you think this through as well. One and let's use, for example, in the 2000, 2001, actually, I founded a yoga studio in New York City in Hell's Kitchen. New York City grew. It was, you know, like manage the place was senior teacher taught, thousands of people did, while simultaneously plumbing the toilets and mopping the floors and fixing everything that needed to be fixed. And and seven years into that journey, um, exited. I was like fortunately, as a business, it was also doing very well and was able to sell. And that process of figuring out like which would effectively be like the same thing that we're talking about here, like when is it time or is it time was really personal to me, and I started to really think through, like, how do I make this decision? You know, it wasn't that the. Business was crashing and burning. It wasn't that things weren't going well. At that point. I had already actually begun to replace myself within the company to a point where I was working maybe five hours a week. We had a fantastic manager in place and team and an incredible roster of teachers. But still, my identity was to a certain extent bound up in it, and I was wondering what was keeping me in it, because there were other things that I was really interested in doing that were strongly calling me at that point.

Jonathan Fields: [00:08:25] So some of the questions that I asked were a why did I say yes to this in the first place? What did I think was possible to create or make or build that so deeply inspired me to actually invest so much time, energy, and resources in the beginning to build what was then created over a period of years with an amazing team of people. And then a big part of that was saying, what assumptions did I make in saying yes at the beginning? And now that I've done this for a period of time, as reality and fact began to replace assumptions, and sometimes it proved the assumptions out like, yes, this was a good call. It was true. Sometimes it completely proved them wrong. And what I thought would happen, or what I thought was like the thing that I wanted to do, or it actually was completely false. And then I would ask myself, okay, given what I now know, am I still as? Do I still believe that what I thought was possible in the beginning is still possible? Now that I know a lot more truth and fact than I did when I started, so do I believe what was what I thought was possible? Is that still possible now? Am I still as devoted and called to that as I am now? What changes have I had to make that took me away from that original vision? That in the name of pivoting to make sure that I had a sustainable business venture and did those pivots.

Jonathan Fields: [00:10:11] So change or dilute the original vision or mission that I was no longer as compelled or invested in it, even though on the outside it was financially successful. And those were a lot of the questions that I was asking myself along the way. So for me, a lot of that was about going back to the original, asking the questions that I asked like reconnecting with my mission and vision, revisiting my assumptions, revisiting whether I thought it was still possible, and revisiting how the changes that I had to make to make it a viable business change the quality of what I was creating, and whether it changed it so much that it was no longer the thing that I thought it would be, or that spoke to me or called to me in the beginning on a level where it made me feel like it was time to actually step away, because there were now things that were speaking or calling to me much more strongly. So how do you process that type of experience?

Jenny Blake: [00:11:13] Well, I just keep thinking about if you hadn't stepped away from the yoga studio, we might not be here today, at least in this form, because I.

Jonathan Fields: [00:11:22] Definitely wouldn't be here.

Jenny Blake: [00:11:23] Right? Like not too long after you pivoted to Good Life Project and you started doing videos, high production quality video interviews early, before podcasting had really taken off, and you were following the thread of something in your spirit to of what you wanted to create and who you wanted to become next. And like you said, I think sometimes it's really hard to say no or walk away when something is working, because you had created one of the most popular yoga studios in New York City. People loved it. The community was thriving. They loved you. It's like, that's a lot of good juju to walk away from. And I would imagine that it might have felt at least I'll speak for myself. I sometimes get tangled up in how sad I'll feel communicating the news or letting other people down, disappointing them, knowing that their preference would be that I stay and not that I go kind of within what you were sharing. It occurred to me too, that for me, sometimes it starts as a whisper. You know, Oprah says your life is always speaking to you. Are you listening? And I do think that by the time we are not listening, we get hit by those cosmic two by fours, like more and more dramatic events. Or for me, it just often manifests. Physically. I get sick, I get weird things that happen, so my body will start to kick in pretty early if I'm off track and I'll get vertigo where I can't stand up straight, or I'll get a raging ear infection where I cannot function like searing pain in my head and my jaw.

Jenny Blake: [00:12:51] Or it could just be anything like that. Just these weird kind of somatic messes. Is that if I'm not listening to the whispers, that's how I start to know. I must have gotten off track somewhere. And with what you were describing. I've learned about myself over the years that I like creating things. I like taking things from 0 to 1, even within the context of a company. My first job was at a startup. I was the first employee, and I did everything. Everything from ordering toilet paper to ordering office furniture to receiving packages, creating a new employee manual, managing our AdWords accounts. But I loved it because I was doing everything and I was building everything. Then two years in, all of a sudden the startup grew to 30 people and I had three managers, and I started to feel very stifled. There was less room for me to grow, and admittedly, at that time I was only 20 years old. I didn't do very much or say very much in order to stay. I might have communicated that I was getting a little restless or bored, but they had kind of told me, well, there's nowhere really for you to go advancement wise. It's a small company. And that's when I started interviewing for Google in my car on lunch breaks.

Jenny Blake: [00:13:54] And I think they probably knew within Google. When I started there, the company was 6000 people, so it was very agile. It was still in that scrappy stage. By the time I left, it was 36,000 people and things just felt slower. I had launched this massive drop in coaching program called Career Guru, but after creating and launching it, my job was to maintain and market it well. Lo and behold, that's the same thing that in my own business over ten years later, now it's 12.5 years later, it's the same place. I get stuck where I like building and creating, and then I'm not good at just maintaining a program. Like by the time it gets into maintain and market something, I lose interest. And so the trick for me is to figure out, okay, what is the sweet spot? What's that happy medium? But sometimes I feel like it's okay to walk away from something if you've served your role, the thing that you're good at. So like I said, I'm a really good initiator creating order from chaos. That's my essentialist sparketype. And then it's okay to hand it off to somebody. And in a way, I wonder if that's what you did with the yoga studio like you envisioned it, you created it, you lit the fire, you sparked the community, and then maybe you aren't the person that's meant to then run a yoga studio as your career path for the next 10 or 20 years.

Jonathan Fields: [00:15:19] Yeah, I love that. You know, it also brings up there's another question that I started asking, which is what does this community need? Because, you know, a yoga studio is a unique type of business in that it's not just like we produce widgets and people buy the product and like, move on. It's a community and very often a very deeply, closely knit community. We happen to have launched on the eve of nine over 11 in New York City. So this community was in the beginning. There was a certain trauma binding that happened within the community. And granted, seven years later, it was a very different community, a very different ethos, and it served a different purpose. Yet still there were really deep ties within the community. I had students the last day that I taught, on my last day there in December of 2008, who were there the first day we opened, you know, so I felt this sense of also beyond, what do I need? What does the business need? What does the community need? And am I giving it? What is what is right for it? What is fair? What is like honorable for it? And the answer to that question reinforced my sort of like growing decision that that it was time for me to step aside, which is that a community needs somebody that is truly invested in sustaining it and growing it and giving to it. And I found myself increasingly disconnected, not because there weren't people that I loved and but because I just kept feeling increasingly called to other things. And I realized that I was more and more checked out. And in a business which is built around a sense of belonging and community, that's not okay.

Jonathan Fields: [00:16:58] That's not doing service to the community on a level that I felt I felt good about, even though we had great teachers and like managers and and people within the community who were ambassadors within the community, I still felt like there should be somebody who's there and really deeply invested, and I wasn't anymore. And that became another sign to me that just piled onto the other questions that I was asking. I also really love, and I don't want to skip over the point that you made about Somatic Whispers, because I feel like so often we discount those, you know, like I tend to I moved into this process and many other versions of it in maybe a more analytical way, but with age, I've actually probably become less analytical about quitting and more somatically oriented, because I've learned that my body sends signals often way before my rational. Brain or intellect has any grip on how I'm really feeling about something. And often it's those signals are signals that result in unease, dysfunction, pain, or even illness. And sometimes you're like, why is this happening? And I'm not a believer in the sort of the pop psychology like theme of like, everything happens for a reason. No, I've seen too much in the world, which is too horrible, um, to just nod my head along with that. But I do believe that oftentimes our body receives and processes experiences for us and tells us in ways when things are or are not right for us, or okay in ways that we don't listen. We've we've sort of like tuned out what happens from the neck down. And I think really tuning back into your somatic signaling is such an important part of the process.

Jenny Blake: [00:18:49] Yeah. And if you've been through burnout cycles before, which I know is a common theme on SPARKED, it's just not worth it. It's like for me, I've been through enough of those cycles where I didn't address those somatic signals early enough, and I saw how it just absolutely laid me flat and I couldn't move, couldn't function. I became so down about everything, and now I just try to catch it sooner because I know it's not worth it. I see exactly where it's heading. So I think part of knowing when to quit is weighing the costs and the risks. Is the cost of me staying greater than the risk I would take by leaving, and that might be physical costs. It might be cost to your relationships, cost to your personal mental well-being, your emotional health. And sometimes the costs start to escalate. Even a cost of being out of integrity with yourself like you were describing with the community. For those of us who are really heart centered, we want to show up in full integrity or not at all. Like there's going to come a point where it feels false. And for me, being out of integrity, I should not be doing that thing at all. I don't want to show up in the world that way and life is too short. But that kind of happens slowly. During 2020, I had a couple people on my Free Time podcast who shut down their long running communities toward the end of 2020 or early 2021, because it was almost like they were crushing themselves under the weight of holding space for so many people.

Jenny Blake: [00:20:18] So I know multiple people who shut down a community, sold a community, helped their full time team member find a new role with another company, somebody who switched only to a paid Substack so she could have much fewer people who were reading her writing. And she felt less exposed because there was something about the events of 2020 that took a toll on people who were in a space of leadership. Even if you're a manager within a company, I feel like managers and parents have been very just in a pressure cooker the last few years of taking care of your own personal needs while managing the needs of others. You know our friend Charlie and fellow SPARKED advisor. He calls it the social overhead of managing and holding space for any number of people. Not just yourself, not just your family, but then your team. So if you're a manager or a people leader, or you manage a community with so much happening in the world, I mean, that's a lot and none of us quite know how to do that. So there's going to come a point where the costs of doing that are no longer aligned. And it so I saw a lot of people sort of admit or come to the realization, I need to shut this thing down so that I can heal and I can create.

Jenny Blake: [00:21:27] What's next? Yeah. Someone I met through your podcast, Natalie Liu, she wrote a book called the Joy of Saying No. She shut down a long running podcast recently, and her question to herself was twofold. One, she said, or have I achieved what I set out to? So with the project, had she achieved what she set out to? And then the next thing was, as soon as she was wondering, should I shut it down? She took that as her own clue. Well, if I'm even asking the question, that's a whisper as well. Just wondering should I quit is kind of its own signal that maybe you secretly, deep down, might want to. And as soon as she was debating what number episode to stop on, she gave herself permission not to make it some fancy milestone number, but like the very next episode. And I admired that. And that's Natalie's, the one who was asking me about pivot, but where I think it's too soon to quit is that for me? I thought about the costs of closing something down, and I thought, but wait, you know, for me, with the case of the Pivot podcast, it's been around eight over eight years. It's like, wait, but I just have four conversations a month.

Jenny Blake: [00:22:35] I have them with friends. That's my way of networking. So it was still feeding me. It is still present tense, still feeding me enough that maybe it's not the new the shiny new project, but that shutting it down is actually removing something essential from my life. And it's not that I couldn't replace it. Sometimes I think that we do need to have the courage to shut something down and let there be white space, but if there's still a spark of aliveness and the part of you who someone says, why don't you just shut that down already? And you go, wait, no, no, I don't want to lose X, Y, and Z. To me, those are some of the sparks that say, okay, stay. But as my friend Leanne would say, ask yourself, how can I fall in love with this again? So okay, any project that we're in for almost a decade might get stale. We might hit plateaus. And so I love that inquiry as well. All right. If I'm going to stay, how can I fall in love with this again? What shifts do I need to make that would shift me back into alignment and back into integrity? And if if you've tried everything and there's just simply no way and it's slowly killing your spirit, that's when I think it's time for sure to go.

Jonathan Fields: [00:23:41] Yeah. And as as you're describing that, I'm nodding along. So within the sparketype body of work, one of the tools that we've developed in. Train all of our certified advisors and working with with their clients is something we call a Spark Canvas. This is a one page visual document that has 11 core metrics of. Basically, these are key things that matter deeply to you in the work that you're doing. And we use that same one page document, the canvas as a decision making tool to first analyze your current work to see, like how well or poorly aligned are these different elements in my current work with the things that I say, like, I really need to be present in order to feel alive. And then we we literally like, have you kind of like go through a rating system to heatmap, like, how on track am I like, how aligned is this thing with me and helps you really identify like when things aren't aligned, what exactly is it? That's not right? Because I think a lot of people can't often key in on exactly what's not right. And then we ask the question, you know, like, are there things that we can do, just like you were saying, to bring them back into alignment with that, make a bigger, more disruptive decision to quit, to entirely leave.

Jonathan Fields: [00:24:56] And we walked through like three stages that we call realign, reimagine and reinvent. You know, realign is like these subtle little shifts that we can make, often in mindset or tiny tweaks, without anyone else knowing that change the quality of the work that we're doing enough so that it does feel more aligned and we can express more of ourselves and get what we need more. You know, the reimagine phase sort of like takes that and extends it a little bit more with a lot more detail. Well, what about different jobs or teams within the same organization? And then if you get there and you're like, it's still not giving me what I want, I'm still too out of alignment with the things that matter to me. Then we explore the reinvent phase, which says, okay, so maybe it actually is time to leave this, this current thing or job or company or even industry sometimes. Sometimes you even retrain entirely in something different. But at least you know why you're doing it at that point. And I think it's important to try and get more clarity around that in a granular way. And we look at everything like, is it allowing me to express my primary and shadow sparketype? Is it allowing me to do less of the work of my anti sparketype? We look at all sorts of other metrics, like things that people never think about, like tolerance for uncertainty.

Jonathan Fields: [00:26:06] There are certain jobs where there's just a huge amount of day to day, high stakes uncertainty. Some people love that and thrive in those environments. Other people are wrecked by it and like everything else, could be good. But if that's a part of it, it's a brutalizing effect on them. So we look at a whole bunch of different metrics in that. So I think, you know, like there are the questions that we've asked that we're talking about. There's this somatic signaling that we've talked about. There's the thinking about what are the costs of not doing something else. And then there's even a more analytical approach, which we tend to go into with, you know, developing a spark canvas and also what we call a reality check and opportunity check around analyzing our current and potential future work opportunities, by the way, that we are developing that in a much more broader, more public, programmatic way so that everyone will have access to these tools very shortly. So, well, that's exciting. But I think big picture, there are a lot of different ways to to sort of like step into this inquiry.

Jenny Blake: [00:27:02] Yeah. Well, I love that the SPARKED canvas sounds like such a helpful way to just put it down on paper and sit with it a little bit. I've had a lot of people ask me in the last few years, they're thinking of quitting a full time job, and you and I both kind of share a similar perspective on this, which is our answer is not, yeah, do it. Anything's possible. Follow your dreams. I've been telling people like, if you have a job and a paycheck right now, I'd hang on to it. Like just knowing for me how it's been as a small business owner the last few years. I think sometimes there's never a great time to quit anything a project, let alone a full time job. But there are some times that are better than others. And so part of that decision, like if your body is falling apart and you can't stand it for even another day, okay, you can quit. And you got to look at how big is your runway and are you comfortable with the level of risk? Someone was just asking me the other day. It was maybe for like a location independent podcast. And I was saying, you know, it's well and good to have the dreams. There's nothing wrong with that. But if it took you eight months to get another job, are you okay with that? And I never want to tell anybody how long something is going to take or not.

Jenny Blake: [00:28:14] Maybe it's going to take you only eight days. Like you have a great network, you have a great resume, a unique skill set. But are you okay with what would feel like the worst case scenario with that level of risk of knowing when to quit? And so there have been some people that I've spoken to with really cushy jobs, and I just say, I wouldn't do it right now. If I were you, I wouldn't quit into this economy. And so if you can hang on a little longer and make some of those readjustments as you just described. Jf, I think sometimes there's a time for that. You can know you want to quit something and, and also know that you're not going to. Do it right away, and sometimes I find it helpful to even delay the decision. So if you find yourself completely spinning out and just churning over this and you're not sure and you're not sure many times it's worked very well for people I've worked with on career pivots to just set a time like, I'm not going to think about this question again until one month from now or two months from now.

Jenny Blake: [00:29:10] And you every time your brain starts to go into that, chewing on it like a chew toy, there's no nutrition there anymore. You're just chewing and spinning. I'm not going to think about it for two months. You just postpone even considering the question if the spinning is not productive. And then the last thing I'll say there is, on the flip side, there's been almost no one I've ever spoken to about pivoting choices they've made where they've actually regretted it. So I do think that decisions are data, and there's never really a great time, but I have yet to talk to somebody who has said to me, I regret making whatever decision I did, even if that next move didn't quite work out as they expected, they pivoted again. But most people I spoke with just didn't look backward. In fact, more common was somebody said I didn't have the courage to do it myself until I got laid off or, you know, and then I took the severance and I did XYZ thing, like many people actually said to me that I wish I had the courage to do it sooner, I didn't. So in the end, change chose me. And yet I'm so glad that that happened because I was ready.

Jonathan Fields: [00:30:14] Yeah, no. And I've heard that a number of times too. And the other thing that you're bringing up in my mind is taking me back to when I left a career in law. I was working so many hours. I was in such poor physical and mental health that I knew at that point that I was literally falling apart, and I wasn't functionally in a space where I could make a good decision. And I knew enough of that, that instead of saying I quit and tendering my resignation, I requested and was fortunate to receive a month leave of absence. And I knew I wanted that literally to just sleep, eat well, move and recover a level of mental health so that I was capable of making a good decision. And in that window I gained a lot of clarity and it allowed me to make decisions to say like, no, I'm actually going to completely close the door on this. Um, and, but sometimes we also need space, not just to stop the spinning and the chatter, but to do whatever we need to do to get to a place of mental well-being, psychological ease where we feel like we're actually we have the ability to make a considered decision. And it's not a decision which is being made from a place where you really just don't have the resources to think it through. Again, we're not talking about situations where you're in a genuinely dangerous or toxic environment. Those are situations where very likely you need to remove yourself. But those are the rare situations that we're talking about here. So final thoughts as we come full circle on this.

Jenny Blake: [00:31:53] Well, the leaf I'm glad you brought that up because in fact, the same thing was true for me. I took a leave of absence from Google not doing that as a way to quit. I fully expected to go back, but when the leaves started, I realized just how much I was doing, and I realized that going back wouldn't be fair to myself. My first book that was launching, or to my team at Google. And so I wasn't able to get the distance and perspective from within the day to day of the job. And so I think that, you know, for some people, leaves and sabbaticals can be really re-energizing, and you come back maybe even into a new role. And then for others, like, like you said, it's kind of that physical reset. And so I would look for ways to try on decisions. And you can even do this, um, just in your imagination of just, okay, make the decision in your mind and act as if every day, if that were going to be true, how would you be feeling? What would you be doing? You know, and so sometimes I think without having to shake up your life too dramatically, yet you can just try it on and see how that would feel and sit with it. And then ultimately, as one of my friends Penny says, she wrote a book called The Intuitive Way. Intuition Works on a need to know basis and not a moment sooner. So I find it reassuring to also trust that my intuition is going to tell me, and I will try to just remain open to signs, signals, whispers, Serendipities synchronicities. And my question is, just please help me assess what would be in the highest good for all involved. And that's going to include me. It's going to include my team, the projects, the recipients of whatever creative work I might be doing or my team. If I worked in a company just I will hold an intention to be shown what is in the highest good for all involved.

Jonathan Fields: [00:33:42] Mhm. I love that and it feels like a great place for us to wrap up as well. Janie Blake, thank you so much always for. Your wisdom and your experience and your stories, and to our amazing listening community. So glad to be able to share ideas and questions with you, and we'll see you all again here next week. Take care. Hey, so I hope you enjoyed that conversation. Learned a little something about your own quest to come alive and work in life, and maybe feel a little bit less alone along this journey to find and do what sparks you. And remember, if you're at a moment of exploration, looking to find and do or even create work that makes you come more fully alive, that brings more meaning and purpose and joy into your life, take the time to discover your own personal sparketype for free at sparketype.com. It'll open your eyes to a deeper understanding of yourself and open the door to possibility like never before. And hey, if you're finding value in these conversations, please just take an extra second right now to follow and rate SPARKED in your favorite podcast app. This is so helpful in helping others find the show and growing our community so that we can all come alive in work in life together. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields and this is SPARKED. This episode of SPARKED was produced by executive producers Lindsey Fox and me, Jonathan Fields. Production and editing by Sarah Harney.